Player Features and Ideas Discussion

we don't know what is their PG/CPU cost. For this reason, we won't know if we can fit them on BS or not.


honest, my concern is that if they bring XL shield extender, it is possible that shield BS get nerf in shield hp.

Reaver, issue with XL shield extender if we release them without nerf, one that benefit most would be one that have good base for passive shield tank, as Scorpion Navy Issue, and Rattlesnake. as they will get much better passive tank with it.

I don't find it wrong if we see more passive tank shield BS.

just that it is good chance that CCP will nerf shield BS to rebalance on new XL extender

Passive shield regen tanks don't get good until you have a lot of modules dedicated to that tank. It's really unbalanced because you get tiny bonuses but there's no stacking penalty. That means very often the last module you put on can make the difference between a weak tank and a very strong one.

That being said, it's still too weak. Case in point, two Rattlesnake fits I tried:

[Rattlesnake, Active Regen]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Explosive Deflection Field
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I



[Rattlesnake, Passive Regen]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Explosive Deflection Field
Shield Recharger II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 75
Large Micro Jump Drive

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I




The numbers:
both are using an Angel Cartel-approximate damage profile: 1 EM | 2 Thermal | 5 Kinetic | 12 Explosive
my skills

Active regen
Total effective hit points: 150,139
Effective shield hit points: 102,732
Shield resistances: 62% | 69.6% | 77.2% | 91.9%
Defense: 2162
Capacitor loss: -103.4
Capacitor gain: +103.7
Capacitor stability: stable at 32%


Passive regen
Total effective hit points: 134,511
Effective shield hit points: 108,221
Shield resistances: 56.5% | 65.2% | 73.9% | 90.7%
Defense: 1721
Capacitor loss: -8.1
Capacitor gain: +9.3
Capacitor stability: stable at 68%


They both have similar hit points but the Active regen fit has way better defense. Now you might notice that the active regen ship has an X-type shield booster. Yes, the passive regen Rattlesnake's fit is a bit cheaper, but the Pith X-type X-Large Shield Booster is a very cheap module for its value, cheaper than some faction modules. I was unable to find any such deals that would improve the passive regen fit's tank.

Not only does the active regen get a lot more defense, but it also has a rig slot and a medium slot dedicated to its offense. On top of that, the passive regen fit is strangled by its poor capacitor regen and needs a capacitor booster to stay afloat for any extended period of time, while the active regen fit has such rapid capacitor regen it can merely turn off its shield booster 15% of the time to power virtually anything else. Were the deadspace shield boosters more expensive, I'd still rather fly the active tank with a T2 booster (1347 defense), it's lower defense per second but not by a huge margin and it comes with better damage application and capacitor. In fact the T2 shield booster costs less capacitor, so I could take off a capacitor rig or perhaps a flux coil and get something else for damage application.

I won't be using a passive Rattlesnake at the very least until I can fit a battleship-sized shield extender to it. At that point I might do it just to show off some nice defense numbers but I'll probably just stick with the shield booster fit. It's both easier to fly and far more scale-able. Here I showed you the passive tank at its best. Were I to devote five fewer slots to tank on both ships, the passive tank ship would suffer FAR more to the point of not even having a viable tank, while the active tank ship would still tank level 4 missions with ease.

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I just have to ask: What is a 'uta' and why is it luscious?

just throwing this out there fw shield extenders only offer a minute 250 hp more, where as faction amarr plates offer about 500 HP more

Wow, lots of biased fact presenting going on, very interesting.

Okay, none of us will argue that shield and armor should be the same. That is silly. So lets get down to nuts and bolts to compare first. Unfortunately, I am away from the computer, so I do not have the numbers handy. Will speak from personal experiences. If I make errors, please take that fact into account and understand that I actually like to be proven wrong and/or given more info.

Will grab from eve wiki when I can, by default, I will refer to T2

Large Shield extender vs 1600mm armor plates

Large shield extender II:
powergrid usage -165 MW
CPU usage - 46 tf
Shield HP bonus - 2,625 HP
Signature radius bonus - 25 m

Resulting detriment: Higher damage hits. On smaller hulls, such as a LSE cruiser, this can be significant. Lower fitting however. Easy on PG making for easier fitting of high damage weapons and prop mods. Moreso on smaller hulls

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

powergrid usage - 575 MW
CPU usage - 33 tf
Armor Hp Bonus - 4800 HP
Mass Addition - 3,750,000 kg

Uses less CPU, but more powergrid per hitpoint bonus. Half as many hitpoints per powergrid. This can make fitting high power and prop mods more difficult. Grain of salt here as ships tend to have powergrids and cpu similar to what they are fitting. Penalty is you are slower, making kiting style play with passive armor more difficult, as well as easier to track.


So from this point, I am agreeing with the OP. It does seem like there is something missing from the passive tank side for shields. But differentiation is important. Shields are much more powerful on the active side, as mentioned earlier with the extra large shield booster. But not all is so nice. To get high resists, vital to passive tanks and to helping maintain logi transferred hp, you tend to need to use active hardeners. If you full passive, it tends to take up more slots and rigging. This makes you vulnerable to having your tank capped out.

Armor on the other hand, is most powerful when 100% passive. Hardeners at best for just taking up large holes if you want. The active boost is less powerful and needs to essentially be double repper to match a shield. So now things are becoming quite divergent. Armor, being low slot means fewer damage mods, but it can be pure passive, making the only way to break it with guns. In addition, it leaves all mids open for more capacitor and electronics and warfare modules including tackle. Result? An inpenetrable tank that can be effective. See damnations....

Shields? Well if you heavy shield, you are not on a limited pick and choose for your low slots. If you want tackle and prop in your shield mids, well now you are picking and choosing. Though your lows are open enough for high damage. Having an X-Large booster now opens up new passive fittings. A lot more tank along with gank. The old drake for example. High damage AND high defence. Even now, is a reason why certain shield ships are favorable. Combining speed, missiles and shields means you have a good defence, high damage and effective application. Give an xlarge booster and this will become even more apparent. Toss in a boost amp and suddenly a ship can pulse three quick shield pulses and be full hp.


The big issue is the limited nature of active reppers in a battle. Once out of small gang, there is just no use for it. Alpha is king. That is a different matter however. If squad vs squad combat became more normalized, then active boosters might have a higher place in pvp. The same goes for passive regen shields as well. They can be reasonable without a full gimped fit outside of alpha style pvp. I just do not have numbers for what I would consider a reasonable passive regen.

Overall, there is a whole lot of variables to consider, but the numbers are only a part of the truth. We need to look at the whole package. Are their other advantages/disadvantages that are not being considered?

The one bit to all of this that does have me scratching my head is the armor layering. Not much in the fits where that will be a better choice over more resist or just a plate. A 15% boost for a low slot vs any of the plates really? I guess it is a potential on a capital is about it...

Edit: As for the capital stuff, I guess it will come down to whether they can even come close to fitting on a cap. The fitting difference between battleship and capital is pretty extreme.

They should still have the same percentage increase over the T2.

that only applies to large scale. shield regen can be used and makes a difference in smaller scale engagements. Also ASB.

would be nice for a passive rattlesnake to be worth a crap again..

I dunno, I have a passive fit and I like it. Of course I make use of some mobility and range to reduce damage. The slots usually reserved for the cap to feed active boosters is all damage boosting mods.

Edit: That has been my play from the beginning in regards to pve. It is what I consider a true buffer fit where it doesn't do all the tanking, but regen is passive to it. In terms of armor, that would be a high passive resist with a single repper. Not enough to keep up with high agro, but enough if avoiding damage a bit. Been my pve play style since early eve.