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[December] Command Destroyers

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Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#461 - 2015-11-20 05:14:16 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

I was testing this today and the DST will maintain its alignment even after being jumped. It won't be much of a change to DSTs, if you get caught after being jumped you were probably still going to be caught without a CD present.

You aren't considering the effect of gate guns on light tackle if you try and tackle the DST directly on the gate.
Ripping it off gate removes that issue.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#462 - 2015-11-20 06:10:13 UTC
I'm thinking these things are a bit too fast.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#463 - 2015-11-20 07:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Come December a lot of people looking forward to this, who do not read this thread or test on sisi, are going to feel they have been slapped in the face, instead of having a new toy to play with.

Is that really a good idea?



They should read blogs and notes then. Eve a complicated game...it can need some additional reading. Eve is not alone here. Damn near any MMO or online RPG I played is like this.

CCP very generous here with a fair amount of notice. I have seen crap changed last minute with almost no warning. Sometimes nice presents...sometimes hey CCP where is my dinner, kiss or KY before you bend us over twink in the prison shower style.

Or were you expecting 2000000 noobs being in these day 1. You weren't getting this. Boats like this can be game changing force multipliers. It wasn't being given out like candy.

Specialized ship, specialized train. Those with an interest in leadership should have had these already. Fun fact....many leadership skills give passive boosts no link fit whatsoever. 2% per level. Small roam. put a player on booster spot and lets have them 5'd already for say shields. That is 10% more shield ehp right there alone. No links...in any ship they fly. These aren't useless skills. Its10% boosts max level to many areas given just by being there.


Crew/players opted to not hook themselves up doing this, thats on them. I did this long ago of own free will and no desire to fly CS'. Many did. Out with 5-10 friends often....at some point one if not more should be going you know, someone should be in the booster spot who can actually do something there, if only for 10% passive boosts no links.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#464 - 2015-11-20 08:41:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

I was testing this today and the DST will maintain its alignment even after being jumped. It won't be much of a change to DSTs, if you get caught after being jumped you were probably still going to be caught without a CD present.

You aren't considering the effect of gate guns on light tackle if you try and tackle the DST directly on the gate.
Ripping it off gate removes that issue.



Which is why for the love of all that is holy, these need to aggro guns on initiation.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#465 - 2015-11-20 09:16:55 UTC
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Maksmad
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#466 - 2015-11-20 09:51:15 UTC
Question for CCP or someone with access to SISI.

Command Destroyer skill - what rank is it?

Question to CCP

Command Ships - will it be renamed to Command Cruisers?

thx
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#467 - 2015-11-20 10:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

I was testing this today and the DST will maintain its alignment even after being jumped. It won't be much of a change to DSTs, if you get caught after being jumped you were probably still going to be caught without a CD present.

You aren't considering the effect of gate guns on light tackle if you try and tackle the DST directly on the gate.
Ripping it off gate removes that issue.

Not quite, most decent gate campers will have something that can tank the gate guns, once you are caught my a semi competent gate camp then killing the DST should only be a matter of time.

The DSTs best defence is to avoid being tackled, it can do this my using MWD + Cloak, and also WCS in LS. The CD won't make any difference to whether you get tackled.

Also you'd need two CDs to pull the DST out of gate gun range. After having thought about this for a few days although I believe CDs are fine by themselves, being able to daisy chain jumps will be completely OP and game breaking as you can effectively move ships an unlimited distance by daisy chaining.

Want to bring snipers to your fleet? No problem, jump 100km to pick them up and pre activate another CD for the return journey. Want to avoid gate guns? Use two CDs to move 200km out of gate gun range. I think this is too powerful as you have unlimited movement possibilities by daisy chaining.

Three changes I'd urge CCP to reconsider before these start to become balanced.

1. Disallow daisy chaining (perhaps after a CD is jumped the MJFG's needs a period of time to recalibrate).

2. An active bastion module should stop a marauder being jumped and the cyno should be jumped with the cyno ship if the ship is able to be jumped in the first place.

3. Activation of the MJFG should cause instant aggression upon activation rather than upon jumping.
Moneta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#468 - 2015-11-20 11:10:34 UTC
Remove the ability to probe ships on the same grid as the prober, and this'll turn out alot of fun for fleet fights i think. Don't and it'll have way less of a fun enhancing impact. Either way, it'd be good nerf same-grid combat probing anyway
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#469 - 2015-11-20 11:12:23 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
TarPalantir I wrote:


Tar-Palantir is rather uneasy about the new mechanic to the point of being opposed, but he is going to avoid getting into that discussion and focus on his point that the MJFG is a massive change that will have very far ranging impacts. It isn’t a couple of scenarios that will change, or a “niche" that gets “nerfed” (whether that be heavily tanked ship station games or Incursion fleets) - this will change how Eve is played at a very basic level. That is what people should be thinking of when discussing these changes, not whether it helps/hurts their favorite activity.

Hopefully CCP realizes this and have considered the wide reaching impacts such a basic change to movement mechanics will have.


I have the impression that CCP haven't tested this thoroughly and are throwing it out there for us to test. It seems to be a method of balancing they have used for stuff such as the T3 Destroyers, Garmur, and more recently HIC 37.5km scrams.

.......

As for your comments on positioning, yes it seems logical that this will push fights into a 50km sweet spot. At 100km you are vulnerable to MJDs and now CDs, and at 150km+ you are vulnerable to probing. I don't see this as great as it kills a lot of long range doctrines. I also agree that a lot of these changes won't hit home until they are live on Tranquility, and at this early stage raising these points will be like shouting into the wind.

Good post by the way.



Its quite obvious forum design isn't suited for feedback threads. I guess its even easier for CCP dev's themselves, to track down feedback in the "branching structured " reddit forums then in their companies very own forum.

Concerning the new ships and the MJFG module. It looks quite stimulated by merchandising logic. We have 5 new ships,with a brand new module exclusively for the new ship type. It is fair to state CCP game design department has been quite successful in the last years introducing new ship types, balancing them and listening to player feedback in the same context

On the hand this can't be said about new modules and the re-balancing of meta4 items ( ...not to speak about faction modules respective faction store items). Ancillary armor booster, ancillary shield booster, reactive armor harders, MicroJumpDrives are for example , stil sitting on blue print copy seed. Now they have settled on a function as to to save exploration pilot income ....making the already complex production mechanics of eve spreading out into the contract department .

I see the MJFG module, if balance is passed, sitting rite among this selection of "blue print copy only items"......no faction variants, no t2 variants and being fittable only on a small selection of ships.

Introducing new ship types stimulates short turn merchandising effects while module rebalancing creates long-term customer satisfaction, yeah ....its quite a typical economic dilemma.
Personally, i think, its about time to put a bit of work in the ground-laying module rebalancing. I feel that the niches for new supcap ships are becoming too small and too complicated.







afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#470 - 2015-11-20 11:16:34 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

I was testing this today and the DST will maintain its alignment even after being jumped. It won't be much of a change to DSTs, if you get caught after being jumped you were probably still going to be caught without a CD present.

You aren't considering the effect of gate guns on light tackle if you try and tackle the DST directly on the gate.
Ripping it off gate removes that issue.

Not quite, most decent gate campers will have something that can tank the gate guns, once you are caught my a semi competent gate camp then killing the DST should only be a matter of time.

The DSTs best defence is to avoid being tackled, it can do this my using MWD + Cloak, and also WCS in LS. The CD won't make any difference to whether you get tackled.

Also you'd need two CDs to pull the DST out of gate gun range. After having thought about this for a few days although I believe CDs are fine by themselves, being able to daisy chain jumps will be completely OP and game breaking as you can effectively move ships an unlimited distance by daisy chaining.

Want to bring snipers to your fleet? No problem, jump 100km to pick them up and pre activate another CD for the return journey. Want to avoid gate guns? Use two CDs to move 200km out of gate gun range. I think this is too powerful as you have unlimited movement possibilities by daisy chaining.

Three changes I'd urge CCP to reconsider before these start to become balanced.

1. Disallow daisy chaining (perhaps after a CD is jumped the MJFG's needs a period of time to recalibrate).

2. An active bastion module should stop a marauder being jumped and the cyno should be jumped with the cyno ship if the ship is able to be jumped in the first place.

3. Activation of the MJFG should cause instant aggression upon activation rather than upon jumping.



This is not verfied and is conjecture

With the new grids coming and more specifically the lifting of the lock limit, who is to say gate guns will remain with their current, "lock range" limits....?

Worth a thought.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#471 - 2015-11-20 11:35:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

I was testing this today and the DST will maintain its alignment even after being jumped. It won't be much of a change to DSTs, if you get caught after being jumped you were probably still going to be caught without a CD present.

You aren't considering the effect of gate guns on light tackle if you try and tackle the DST directly on the gate.
Ripping it off gate removes that issue.

Not quite, most decent gate campers will have something that can tank the gate guns, once you are caught my a semi competent gate camp then killing the DST should only be a matter of time.

The DSTs best defence is to avoid being tackled, it can do this my using MWD + Cloak, and also WCS in LS. The CD won't make any difference to whether you get tackled.

Also you'd need two CDs to pull the DST out of gate gun range. After having thought about this for a few days although I believe CDs are fine by themselves, being able to daisy chain jumps will be completely OP and game breaking as you can effectively move ships an unlimited distance by daisy chaining.

Want to bring snipers to your fleet? No problem, jump 100km to pick them up and pre activate another CD for the return journey. Want to avoid gate guns? Use two CDs to move 200km out of gate gun range. I think this is too powerful as you have unlimited movement possibilities by daisy chaining.

Three changes I'd urge CCP to reconsider before these start to become balanced.

1. Disallow daisy chaining (perhaps after a CD is jumped the MJFG's needs a period of time to recalibrate).

2. An active bastion module should stop a marauder being jumped and the cyno should be jumped with the cyno ship if the ship is able to be jumped in the first place.

3. Activation of the MJFG should cause instant aggression upon activation rather than upon jumping.



This is not verfied and is conjecture

With the new grids coming and more specifically the lifting of the lock limit, who is to say gate guns will remain with their current, "lock range" limits....?

Worth a thought.


The new grids on Sisi are absolutely enormous, and while what we see there is not conclusive proof of what will be there on release, we can pretty much leave old assumptions in the dust.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#472 - 2015-11-20 15:04:34 UTC
Maksmad wrote:
Question for CCP or someone with access to SISI.

Command Destroyer skill - what rank is it?

Question to CCP

Command Ships - will it be renamed to Command Cruisers?

thx


if they are going to rename Command ships it should be Command battlecruisers P
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#473 - 2015-11-20 17:32:02 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.


Sgt, at least it is a bird. Caldari ships have a long tradition in giving their birds a bird's name.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#474 - 2015-11-20 17:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
elitatwo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.


Sgt, at least it is a bird. Caldari ships have a long tradition in giving their birds a bird's name.


The Bird name fits, I wonder what Storks are like in Iceland, but In the UK we tend to see them as something a bit cute with a Baby in a blanket.

Not as awesome as pontiflex magus or Bifrost, got to love Bifrost as a name.
Stork? Well as you say it's a name, not much more to add. Just wish it was something awesome instead, dripping blood and gore as it forcibly drags things away. Shrike would have been a good name. The butcher bird that carries insects and lizards off and impails them on spikes!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrike

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#475 - 2015-11-20 17:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Estella Osoka
elitatwo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.


Sgt, at least it is a bird. Caldari ships have a long tradition in giving their birds a bird's name.


Explain the Cerberus, Ferox, Scorpion, Onyx, Naga, Badger, Tayra, Basilisk, Golem, Widow, and Rokh. Rokh should prolly have been spelled "Rukh", but I guess CCP failed to catch it.

Did I miss any non-bird name Caldari ships?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#476 - 2015-11-20 18:12:58 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.


Sgt, at least it is a bird. Caldari ships have a long tradition in giving their birds a bird's name.


The Bird name fits, I wonder what Storks are like in Iceland, but In the UK we tend to see them as something a bit cute with a Baby in a blanket.

Not as awesome as pontiflex magus or Bifrost, got to love Bifrost as a name.
Stork? Well as you say it's a name, not much more to add. Just wish it was something awesome instead, dripping blood and gore as it forcibly drags things away. Shrike would have been a good name. The butcher bird that carries insects and lizards off and impails them on spikes!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrike


Shrike does seem more fitting. Especially with the example of carrying bugs off.

Example: MJD to "carry" ships over to be "impaled" by a waiting gang.

Stork sounds like the name of an industrial.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#477 - 2015-11-20 18:21:02 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.


Sgt, at least it is a bird. Caldari ships have a long tradition in giving their birds a bird's name.


The Bird name fits, I wonder what Storks are like in Iceland, but In the UK we tend to see them as something a bit cute with a Baby in a blanket.

Not as awesome as pontiflex magus or Bifrost, got to love Bifrost as a name.
Stork? Well as you say it's a name, not much more to add. Just wish it was something awesome instead, dripping blood and gore as it forcibly drags things away. Shrike would have been a good name. The butcher bird that carries insects and lizards off and impails them on spikes!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrike


Shrike does seem more fitting. Especially with the example of carrying bugs off.

Example: MJD to "carry" ships over to be "impaled" by a waiting gang.

Stork sounds like the name of an industrial.


Storks are oftentimes paired with delivering babies. kinda fits.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#478 - 2015-11-20 18:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:


There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Problem is, in high sec, a gank attempt targets one ship. Yes with a large enough suicide fleet, you can kill an entire incursion fleet. But that is committing numbers and can be noticed on D-scan.

With these destroyers, they can kill a whole fleet in ~5 seconds. With one ship. Tell me how that is not overpowered. I don't care what your thoughts are on incursion runners, that is not the point here. One ship, in high sec, should not be able to effectively kill 10 others illegally in 5 seconds.

PvP fleets are fit to take down PvP ships. A PvE fleet is not designed nor intended to engage a PvP target, especially a destroyer sized target with battleship targeting.



So bring a SeBod HIC. It's not exactly hard to stop these.

Maybe, >gasp< you need to adapt your fittings. The horror.



But again, what this comes down to is "MAH ISK/HOUR!!!!!"


I don't care about incursions, I don't run them.

The bigger point is that ONE ship can, without much warning or notice, wreck an entire incursion fleet. Currently, you need to provide a level of trust (joining a fleet for fleet warps), do something to become a legal target (suspect/killright), or be specifically targeted to lose your ship.

If this class of ship is allowed to use its MJD in high sec, then bombs should be allowed, as they are as indiscriminate and provide at least 10 seconds of warning for ships to get out of the way.

This isn't about who's fun is more important, incursion or gankers. Its recognizing player trends and possible usage cases and ensuring that there is a level playing field for PvP.

You want to kill an incursion fleet, put some effort into it and not 5 seconds to glory. Risk = reward. And 5 seconds is not nearly long enough for the billions from a dead incursion fleet.


These ships are potentially the most disruptive force to have entered the game in recent times, I hope these turn out to be awesome, encourage new tactics and decisions, and bring a new life into many forms of combat.

We have many intelligent, imaginative people who will dream up ideas, that are going to exceed anything we have come up with so far.

Whilst I personally do not do incursions, as I do not enjoy them for reasons that are clear to many who have tried, Introducing these In HS would be like setting predatory big cats loose in a shopping centre. You KNOW children are the first on the menu.

So before we consider such actions, we should see how things play out in areas where we are familar with combat, and not provide a new Noob killing mechanism in HS. Hatred of incursion runners is a bad excuse to allow a widespread irresponsible massacre, no matter how "fun"Roll that some might find it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Alexis Nightwish
#479 - 2015-11-20 18:32:32 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm sort of curious as to who it is at CCP that hates Caldari ships so much as to call the new Destroyer - A common wading bird.
While the Amarr get - A rip off of the pope and Catholic church
Gallente and minmatar - Old Norse name and Greek mythological names respectively.

I guess the Caldari one had its name chosen last and you'd run out of beer and couldn't be bothered thinking about it. Or the beer really took over and you thought Stork would be a good name, in comparison to the other 3.

Are you kidding? It's a great name! I'm going to be doing this every time I use one!

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#480 - 2015-11-20 20:26:30 UTC
What about an ore T2 destroyer that gives mining boosts to the roaming gangs of gas miners :)

These do look good, be nice if they had a speed bonus while cloaked so they can sneak up on things like logi\EWAR support instead of the MWD bonus.