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[December] Command Destroyers

First post First post
Author
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2015-11-17 18:33:11 UTC
Can we pretty pretty please fix FW standing issues for aggression against fleet mates? It seems like a nice counter to these things is to fit a scram to ships that don't want to be jumped (ie logi will now also scram in a chain just like cap). However, FW people get totally screwed and cannot use this tactic due to the standing hit.

.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#202 - 2015-11-17 18:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Terra Chrall wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*



Oh do buzz off if you've no argument other than 'I don't like it'.

We shouldn't be disallowing interesting mechanics to pander to people's laziness.

High Security space has for a long time held a different standard for the purpose of allowing different play styles in different regions.
Certain capital ships are banned, Bombs are banned, Bubbles are banned, etc. Adding any of these to high sec would add interesting game play. But they would change what High sec currently is.

Would use of MJF be interesting game play in high sec? Yes

Would it alter the high sec play style? Probably yes. And thus it will likely fall into the same banned category as those other things for now.

Precisely. If you want to introduce stuff like this into high sec then you can't on a whim suddenly decide I want a game breaking mechanic introduced whilst barring all the others. High sec would need a complete rethink from the ground up. I'm not opposed to it myself although I don't use high sec much, and it seems to cater for a lot of players according to the statistics who would need to be considered.

That being said I'm all for nerfing high sec incursion fleets (perhaps move them to low sec?), although coming up with a poorly though out mechanic that adversely affects the whole of high sec just to try and nerf incursions fleets is clearly not the way to do it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2015-11-17 18:41:13 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:


Garbage.

Onyx locks to 110km with a basic a wing commander.

If they are more than 200km away, even an ABing guardian can get clear of the landing zone.




Ah the crux of it, MAH ISK/HOUR


Point is, you're wrong, you just aren't willing to make the effort.

Again, this is the very thinnest of veils over MAH ISK/HOUR MUST BE PROTECTED BY MECHANICS AND NOT ME.

Effort is for everyone else but the blingmobile guys, right?


Should I link all my API's to show I don't do incursions? I don't care about their isk/hour.

Think outside your own bubble of 'fun' and see how the whole sandbox ripples with your changes.

Onyx can't scram past 37km. Less than a second on the MJD when it lands and fleets dead. Can't even point in time because of server tics.
Btw, onyx and guardian have no business being in the same incursion fleet.

How can a guardian clear the landing zone? At 200km, a minor course correction can compensate for 800 m/s.

You are devising elaborate counters, multi-ship counters, multi-module counters for the victim. Where the ganker has only to press one button to profit. How is this equal game play?

If CCP wants incursion runners to fit for PvP, this is a poor way of doing it.

Mechanics must be equally applied and fair to everyone involved. The command destroyers have a potential to tilt the field in their favor by simply existing in high security space with these modules. You are arguing for mechanics to protect your ganking, not for an equal field.





If I can't scram it, nothing will jump with it. The joy of the ticks.


So then, if not isk/hour - let's talk about other downsides. Go on, I might change my mind.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#204 - 2015-11-17 18:43:11 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Will activating the MJFG flag the person in any way (to give you a good 5 or 6 seconds to blow the ship up or get a scram on it without gate guns lighting you up)?

Are there any limitations (like with smartbombs) on how close you can be to a station/gate to activate the module?

If someone does catch me, and move me 100km away, does that flag me with a capsuleer pvp timer or anything similar?

Do semi-capital ships get moved? (Freighter, Orca, etc)

Will marauders with bastion mode activated be moved?

Will concord be moved? does that count as a hostile action towards concord?

I saw that bombs/drones will be moved... will corpses and wrecks be moved? Will a wreck still be moved if it has an MTU tractoring it in?

......

When we see the full extent of how this module works, will it be the exact same mechanic (except for the 100km in a straight line part) for the Hand of God doomsday weapon that the titans will get?


I know your group can be slow, but did you read any of this?

Why would a flag be needed, Its banned from Hi-sec.
If your moving orca/freighter in low/null without support it deserves to die.
Why would Concord be involved? Did you even read the OP?

Let Tazzy keep you updated on new things, reading is not your strong point. Its in the OP for all your hi-sec needs.


Wow, I don't really know who you are or why the hostility.

1. Yes, I did read it.
2. Flags are important in low sec, too.
3. That seems to be an interesting assumption as to the basis for my question, but it is wrong.
3. Fair point about concord, I didn't really think that one through. Good catch. I'll modify the question to say drifters instead. I was really just thinking about powerful NPCs. Will drifters be moved, and will that make them mad?

Personal attacks online are pretty silly.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#205 - 2015-11-17 18:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
afkalt wrote:

And yet the only reason presented thus far has been

MAH ISK/HOUR

I'm inclined to call you a write-only _forbidden_word_ due to your apparent inability to actually read the thread, but I'll be nice and spell it out more understandable this time.

It has too much potential for griefing, incursions notwithstanding.
The only available counterplay in hisec is reactive. Proactive counterplay in hisec involves criminal status flags and is called suicide.

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#206 - 2015-11-17 18:48:39 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2015-11-17 18:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Querns wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.


There's literally no other way it COULD work. Flags happen on module activation, not effect.

Don't believe me? Shoot a target 200km away in cruise boat and see when concord kicks in.

It's almost as if people don't understand how things work......
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#208 - 2015-11-17 18:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
Querns wrote:

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

Can be circumvented by daisychaining. Admittedly, aiming would be a bit more difficult, but not impossible.

Also incursion runners are not the only possible targets. Flinging ships off the station docking zone, flinging miners off belts, flinging mission runners off the pocket. Or trigger NPCs off mission runners.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2015-11-17 18:54:36 UTC
afkalt wrote:



If I can't scram it, nothing will jump with it. The joy of the ticks.


So then, if not isk/hour - let's talk about other downsides. Go on, I might change my mind.


Aside from the obvious difference in difficulty and preparation that the ganker and victim must do? Okay.

Mission runners will be able to be harassed in new and 'fun' ways without being able to fire back. Oh look, a battleship with a 10 second lock time is trying to run a mission. Would be 'fun' to blink his target npc away from him, without any risk to me. Or blink him closer to the rats when he is distance tanking.

Are you arguing that high sec players need to be pvp fit all the time with 5 second lock time and scrams equipped to avoid being harassed or victimized? High sec is not currently a PvP first zone. To suggest otherwise would be foolish and changing the underpinnings of the game.

A bump from a mach sends a miner flying, but still in range of his asteroid for the first bump. A mach also takes more than 6 seconds to land, align for a bump and send him flying. Barges take about 10 seconds to align and warp. Longer if bumped. So highsec mining becomes a playground for gankers. Especially as, as you suggested, it only gives them a suspect tag. If CCP is holding on their ganking and bumping policies despite the complaints from victims, do you think giving gankers a free harassment tool that is easier to use, more affordable, less time to set up, is going to help gankers keep favor with CCP?

Ships will have issues docking, as a stream of 'gank' ships will keep players from being able to dock unless using insta-dock bookmarks in weird places. Good luck trying to dock on Jita 4-4.

All these complaints are from two factors. The ease of use for the ganker and the lack of consequences. A suspect tag for this level of interference? Honey please. At minimum, the use of this module on a neutral or illegal target in high sec should grant a criminal flag. If a target painter or tracking disruptor will get you concorded, the blink should as well.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#210 - 2015-11-17 18:57:36 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Querns wrote:

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

Can be circumvented by daisychaining. Admittedly, aiming would be a bit more difficult, but not impossible.

Given that acceleration gates always dump all players in the same spot and cannot be used to warp at range, this would be quite a trick indeed.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#211 - 2015-11-17 19:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
Querns wrote:

Given that acceleration gates always dump all players in the same spot and cannot be used to warp at range, this would be quite a trick indeed.

I assume such things as using your own propulsion modules to manually navigate on grid are unheard of amongst the warriors of fleetwarp and knights of the jump bridge.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#212 - 2015-11-17 19:03:07 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Querns wrote:

Given that acceleration gates always dump all players in the same spot and cannot be used to warp at range, this would be quite a trick indeed.

I assume such things as using your own propulsion modules to manually navigate on grid is unheard of amongst the warriors of fleetwarp and knights of the jump bridge.

If you don't understand how to use this property of acceleration gates to safeguard yourself against MJFG trickery, then I am not sure what else to tell you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2015-11-17 19:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:



If I can't scram it, nothing will jump with it. The joy of the ticks.


So then, if not isk/hour - let's talk about other downsides. Go on, I might change my mind.


Aside from the obvious difference in difficulty and preparation that the ganker and victim must do? Okay.

Mission runners will be able to be harassed in new and 'fun' ways without being able to fire back. Oh look, a battleship with a 10 second lock time is trying to run a mission. Would be 'fun' to blink his target npc away from him, without any risk to me. Or blink him closer to the rats when he is distance tanking.


Confirming being shootable by any and everyone is "risk free".

Also confirming battleships can't fit MJDs thus cannot adapt.

And that no mission boat would possibly be able to lock and shoot at 101km.

Any interference allows the ship to be shot freely. That's far from risk free.

Quote:
Are you arguing that high sec players need to be pvp fit all the time with 5 second lock time and scrams equipped to avoid being harassed or victimized? High sec is not currently a PvP first zone. To suggest otherwise would be foolish and changing the underpinnings of the game.


Or, you know. A prop mod. I know, I know, it's a big ask to get a ship over 1.1km/s

Quote:
A bump from a mach sends a miner flying, but still in range of his asteroid for the first bump. A mach also takes more than 6 seconds to land, align for a bump and send him flying. Barges take about 10 seconds to align and warp. Longer if bumped. So highsec mining becomes a playground for gankers. Especially as, as you suggested, it only gives them a suspect tag. If CCP is holding on their ganking and bumping policies despite the complaints from victims, do you think giving gankers a free harassment tool that is easier to use, more affordable, less time to set up, is going to help gankers keep favor with CCP?

Ships will have issues docking, as a stream of 'gank' ships will keep players from being able to dock unless using insta-dock bookmarks in weird places. Good luck trying to dock on Jita 4-4.


Doesn't work if invulnerable, which you are for 99.99% of the docking animation. BAd luck might get a few people, but a few at most.

I seriously doubt it is more affordable. Especially since I can shoot the thing.

Quote:
All these complaints are from two factors. The ease of use for the ganker and the lack of consequences. A suspect tag for this level of interference? Honey please. At minimum, the use of this module on a neutral or illegal target in high sec should grant a criminal flag. If a target painter or tracking disruptor will get you concorded, the blink should as well.


And see you're only looking at this one way.

What about people white knighting? Blink the catalysts away from the target?

What about killing station gamers?

What about saving your friend from a bumper?

What about jumping neutral logi away from war targets?

What about jumping that sniping nado away from the undock so you can move freely?


People will NOT easily be able to abuse a 3 minute cooldown mod. How many bumps can one do in 3 minutes?

If swarms of people make a concerted effort to cause mayhem well....that is rather what the game is about, is it not?
Protector X
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2015-11-17 19:11:05 UTC
I really fear that the release of these ships further puts assault frigates at a disadvantage. I fear the death of the assault frigate with the release of the T3D's and now these. I dont see a niche for assault frigates, so I feel that a re-visit on assault frigates may be in order.

Regarding these command destroyers, I forsee very interesting gameplay happening, good job CCP with the creativity on this one, 2 thumbs up.
Nou Mene
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#215 - 2015-11-17 19:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nou Mene
Stop crying. I hate when ppl talk about the sandbox this and the sandbox that and is not able to accept the new tactics and strategies that could born out of this. I'm for one completely in favor of asking more and more of individual piloting.

To CCP:
- Loving the idea, at the very least release this as presented now.
- Why armor ones have drones and shield ones have missiles. Rethink flycatcher/heretic or add rails/lasers here. Also neut/nos bonus on dragoon?
- Active tank bonuses could be interesting to add more options between shield/armor types.


I love how:
- this can be used to counter bombers
- this can be used against station games
- this can be used to "slice" bigger fleets into more manageable fleet sizes
- this gives piloting skill more value

great work.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2015-11-17 19:21:24 UTC
afkalt wrote:


Confirming being shootable by any and everyone is "risk free".

Also confirming battleships can't fit MJDs thus cannot adapt.

And that no mission boat would possibly be able to lock and shoot at 101km.

Any interference allows the ship to be shot freely. That's far from risk free.

Or, you know. A prop mod. I know, I know, it's a big ask to get a ship over 1.1km/s

Doesn't work if invulnerable, which you are for 99.99% of the docking animation. BAd luck might get a few people, but a few at most.

I seriously doubt it is more affordable. Especially since I can shoot the thing.

And see you're only looking at this one way.

What about people white knighting? Blink the catalysts away from the target?

What about killing station gamers?

What about saving your friend from a bumper?

What about jumping neutral logi away from war targets?

What about jumping that sniping nado away from the undock so you can move freely?


People will NOT easily be able to abuse a 3 minute cooldown mod. How many bumps can one do in 3 minutes?

If swarms of people make a concerted effort to cause mayhem well....that is rather what the game is about, is it not?



Battleship MJD is much longer than the new destroyer one, by several seconds.

A mission boat that is sitting at 70km from the target rat and is now 170km? That's not something anyone plans for.

A battleship, which btw is the most common level 4 mission boat, going over 1km/s are you insane? Have you ever tried running a level 4 in anything other than a pirate ship? Most fit an AB or MJD for maneuvering as a MWD kills cap. Equipping both a MJD and MWD is impossible on some ships, as that takes up a ton of grid. And an extra slot, indirectly nerfing the shield battleship that now has to equip four more mods to counter your one, MWD, MJD, warp scrambler, sebo.

Yes, every mission runner dreams of shooting suspect ships. They are totally confident that their specialized fit for the mission they are on can totally tank someone specialized to kill them once engagable. /s

The docking animation is not 99% invulnerable. You land in a 2,500 radius bubble on the edge of the docking ring. Which means 50% of the time, you are slowboating to the docking point. Unless you have an insta-dock point. And even then, a cluster of ships will be waiting. Odds are, if you are in the landing spot of a ship coming out of warp and cycle your MJFG right when you see them, they will be blinked the instant they land for an easy gank.

White knighting? Yes, I want to move all the catalysts away from their illegal target and instead have them around a now legal target, me. Which hasn't stopped the gank, only delayed it as the mach is still bumping.

Shooting it makes little difference. A suspect tag for a PvP fit player means they are ready for combat and will respond accordingly. Asking all players to fly pvp fit changes the game for the worse, as it ruins creativity.

Despite all the good uses you listed for players to avoid ganks, the downsides are much, much worse. Bubbles would be good for anti-ganking. Lay down defensive bubbles in mining belts. Drop a bubble on the catalysts as they undock.

Additionally, most people using these to gank will be valid targets from their security status, rendering a suspect timer irrelevant. Which means there is no consequence for use of the ship to blink someone.
Tornii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2015-11-17 19:21:24 UTC
The MJFG mechanic sounded too random and gimmicky to me, but I thought maybe these new ships would at least look cool. Then I read they're going to be based on existing models. Meh.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#218 - 2015-11-17 19:23:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Does the 6km radius on the MJFG apply to

1) All ships/etc. that are within 6km when you activate the module (i.e. when spoolup starts)

or

2) All ships/etc. that are within 6km when spoolup finishes

or

3) Something else?


2.

When it finishes. Doesn't matter what happens during spool up.


So if I am scrammed during the spoolup but manage to get the scram off when it finishes, it will still kick-in?

Also, once it finishes when I am scrammed, will it have to go through its "reload" time, or can it be started again immediately as soon as I am not scrammed anymore, as it did not get to fire off anyway?

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2015-11-17 19:25:41 UTC
Nou Mene wrote:


- Loving the idea, at the very least release this as presented now.
- Why armor ones have drones and shield ones have missiles. Rethink flycatcher/heretic or add rails/lasers here. Also neut/nos bonus on dragoon?
- Active tank bonuses could be interesting to add more options between shield/armor types.


great work.


Active tank bonuses aren't that great where these will be getting the majority of use, null. Personally, I don't want to see this line of ships go the way of the interdictor. What is flown in null? Sabres. And only sabres. Anything else and you will be told to reship or get shot at by blues. Making these ships perform very similar means that pilots have more freedom to chose as there is no clear 'best' choice.

Flycatcher/heretic make sense as rails/lasers as they follow the pedigree.

Please no neut/nos bonus. Don't need a more tanky version of dragoon and sentinel.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#220 - 2015-11-17 19:26:30 UTC
As per reddit, the Stork would be better off named the Magpie. Otherwise, lookin' good.