EVE General Discussion

Let's be honest and say that it all depends on the context of the fight.

Are we assuming a 1vs1 , a 1 vs many or a many vs many scenario ?

I'd say that depending on the context either one of us has a valid point with our arguments. Personally I still consider scrams to be the deadliest EWAR.

FYI: ECM and Damp boats on opposite sides normally get into EWAR-wars with each other.

Lets say my 6 man gang has me in a Kitsune up against another 6 man gang with a Keres.

The fight can oft'times come down to: can I can jam out the Keres before they damp me out. One damp on a Kitsune is enough to remove me from the fight and force me to bounce.

No such thing as to much ewar. Maybe its the lack of ECCM ?

Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions.

ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down.

Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy.

Seriously...it's like -

"Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help."

"Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."

I've seen this 'cost' argument time and time again, and it's wrong. Cost has nothing to do with anything. If a Bhaalgorn pilot odesn't know to put on an ECCM (and appropriate cheap sensor strength boosting pirate implants), it's his own fault he gets jammed and killed. Hell a Target Spectrum Breaker has saved my Machariel (I rat with a Mobile depot out just in case).

That's the problem I have with all this complaining. What you are supposed to do is do everything in your own personal power to solve a problem before declaring it some kind of problem that someone else needs to fix. If your multi billion isk pirate ships are getting killed in this fashion, you should be using the counters already available, not complaining about the cheap ships used to kill you.

That is a good idea. You could pretty much throw in any variables to the calculation using my proposal, but the end result is that the effect is always modulated rather than binary which is the main gist of the proposal.

"He who fight and run away live to fight another day." This is the adage the egos won't allow.

Ahar! I've said for years web/scram is a crutch. I've pointed out the vast majority of actual naval engagements do NOT end with the sinking of a vessel, and that this phenomena is a rare beauty. For some reason these folks think that KILL is all there is and there ain't no more. Hence the epeen stroker's KIllboards - they even deny the ego ride they get looking at these, but they don't hesitate at pointing to them to put down other people (like the infantile sissies they truly must be.)

I laugh at the concept you can have a gizmo that has enough umpf to disrupt an engine's functionality, but not quite enough umpf to destroy the engine. It's comical. You can infiltrate a ship's shields, armor, structure and zippy zap his warp engines or his standard engines with this gizmo, but you actually have to use bullets, missiles, lasers...to do what then?

There was a 'before they were introduced' and just like a fisherman who just can't brook a trout wiggling off his hook at the very last minute, some very butthurt whiners couldn't hack a "kill" managing to escape before they got their "righteous killshot" off, so they invented space glue - all of which has more to do with EGO than game play.

So, OP, pat yourself on the back. YOU are correct. The flood of apologists (who are addicted to the crutch) are wrong no matter how much bandwidth they waste with their rationalizations and justifications. In truth, their egos can't hack reality, so they need to juke the system to feel better about themselves - and call it "gaming".

Nice try though. Now you see where pointing out FACTS gets you in certain precincts.

Well, someone is full of...something lol.

Webs and scrams are a necessary evil. Real world 'naval engagements' aren't supposed to be fun, video game space combat is, and without a way to keep an enemy on the field long enough to die, the game would be all tanks and alpha striking blobs. Hell, right now ECM bursting interceptors are making use of the fact that noting can hold them down, what kind of extreme madness would an ENTIRE GAME of that be?

It would be a game I wouldn't play, and I'll bet real money that most other folks wouldn't either. That's the definition of a necessary evil, something that exists not because you want it to, but because you NEED it to.

Your suggestion that people who support these necessary things are only people who benefit from them is also false. I PVE in null sec in expensively fit pirate battleships.. Getting rid of points/webs/scrams would benefit me to no end. I wouldn't even need the MJD on my Mach anymore.

If you had any earthly idea what I and people like me would be able to do in a game without points and scrams, how much isk I would make, how many carriers (or bling tanked sieged high angle Dreadnaught, coming soon) I'd multibox this game into inflationary ruin with, you'd forget about this dumb beleif about scrams and ewar. You really would, I'd see to it lol.

My appetite for that is very low, I'm mainly a PVE player, I only pvp to protect my ratting space and sometimes out of boredom. I'm explaining to you that understating the game (and human nature) is the reason for supporting these things that are nessacary evils, not some 'benefit'.

In plainer language, your accusation that people only like points and scrams etc because they get kills because of them is false. Again, I would MURDER isk in this game if it weren't for those things, but I'm not selfish enough to want to see them nerfed, because that would make the game suck in so many ways.

You simply don't seem to appreciate the value these things give to the game.

This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who).

The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think.