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Anti-Cloaking Probes
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Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2011-12-20 16:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
GUYS! IT IS #$^*@ HARD TO PROBE A LOW SIGNATURE SHIP!!! AND EVEN WITH ALLOT OF SKILL IT TAKES ALLOT OF TIME TO DO SO! ALSO, IF THE SHIP MOVES, THE PROBE SEQUENCE MUST BE STARTED ALL FROM THE START! AND YOU CAN ALWAYS WARP TO ANOTHER SAFE-SPOT EVERY FEW SECONDS ALSO YOU CAN DETECT THE PROBES IN THE DIRECTIONAL SCANNER!!!...

AFK clokers? not a problem : you can always move a corp member to someone system and do the same. It is a valid tactic...

The problem is that there are some inconsistencies in the cloak mechanism... it makes no sense, you be shown on local while cloaked, It is the same as a B2 stealth bomber using a transponder in enemy territory... this is dumb... Cloked players should be removed from local, also every time a cloaked player try to say on local should get a message "Yours cloaking device are impeding local transmissions"

AND Nothing on EVE should be 100% safe! If they know you are there there should be a way to reach you! I like to being cloked, I fly recon! But this must be changed! There should be a way to hunt down cloked ships or at last make their life not so easy...


So,

1- Remove Cloked players from local ( cant be seen and get error message when trying to use it ).
2- Allow it to be probed with Special combat probes. ( Will not make that much diference anyway Blink)

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#142 - 2011-12-20 16:41:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
I'm saying that those that go to wormhole space are of a different mentality as a whole and therefore irrelevant to the discussion of what nullsec carebears choose to do or not do.

Except when you're trying to make nullsec imitate wormhole space for all intents and purposes except for the logistical aspects.


You have me mistaken for others that want the removal of local altogether. I don't. I'm advocating for a change in the mechanics of cloaking and local that prevent wormholes from being broken over a non-issue, that maintain the dangerous aspect of nullsec and don't turn it into a daisy-filled playground and that makes intel gathering a more active endevour.

I disagree fully that local should be flat out removed. I also disagree fully that cloaking needs to be broken because the carebears in null don't feel safe enough.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#143 - 2011-12-20 16:44:00 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
GUYS! IT IS #$^*@ HARD TO PROBE A LOW SIGNATURE SHIP!!! AND EVEN WITH ALLOT OF SKILL IT TAKES ALLOT OF TIME TO DO SO! ALSO, IF THE SHIP MOVES, THE PROBE SEQUENCE MUST BE STARTED ALL FROM THE START! AND YOU CAN ALWAYS WARP TO ANOTHER SAFE-SPOT EVERY FEW SECONDS ALSO YOU CAN DETECT THE PROBES IN THE DIRECTIONAL SCANNER!!!...

Nothing on EVE should be 100% safe!


Wow, you not only failed, but did so loudly.

The problem you've ignored is that these probes break wormhole intel gathering mechanics simply by allowing the presence of a cloaked ship to be determined. I realize you don't understand the significance of that, but it's a major nerf to wormholes that would have an extremely deleterious effect on fleet operations and wormhole PvP in general.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2011-12-20 17:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
GUYS! IT IS #$^*@ HARD TO PROBE A LOW SIGNATURE SHIP!!! AND EVEN WITH ALLOT OF SKILL IT TAKES ALLOT OF TIME TO DO SO! ALSO, IF THE SHIP MOVES, THE PROBE SEQUENCE MUST BE STARTED ALL FROM THE START! AND YOU CAN ALWAYS WARP TO ANOTHER SAFE-SPOT EVERY FEW SECONDS ALSO YOU CAN DETECT THE PROBES IN THE DIRECTIONAL SCANNER!!!...

Nothing on EVE should be 100% safe!


Wow, you not only failed, but did so loudly.

The problem you've ignored is that these probes break wormhole intel gathering mechanics simply by allowing the presence of a cloaked ship to be determined. I realize you don't understand the significance of that, but it's a major nerf to wormholes that would have an extremely deleterious effect on fleet operations and wormhole PvP in general.


Yes, I realize the importance of that, and I also live in a WH.

It only gives Intel WHEN someone uses the probe, and the probe will only be used WHEN someone gets you in the directional, so if someone knows you are there you failed on stealth and should be prepared to run or to PVP. Not to Bear cloaked, cowerings in feer of beeing seen... a fail is a fail.

I know you only lives in WH, and for many years you are doing all the same 100% safe flawless strategy, and you are afraid of changes. But dont worry, this changes would only makes your 100% goes to 75% and it would allow new strategies... And it is not a nerf, it is a change! ( And a nightmare fore carebeers Twisted)

Also, if you like to Pee while playing eve, get a laptop or be fast or log out...Roll

So,
1- Remove Cloked players from local ( can't be seen there and get error message when trying to use it ).
2- Allow cloaked ships to be probed with Special combat probes. ( Will not make that much diference anyway Blink)

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-12-20 17:19:56 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You have me mistaken for others that want the removal of local altogether. I don't. I'm advocating for a change in the mechanics of cloaking and local that prevent wormholes from being broken over a non-issue, that maintain the dangerous aspect of nullsec and don't turn it into a daisy-filled playground and that makes intel gathering a more active endevour.

A partial wormhole implementation, where cloaked ships are excempt from showing up in local, yes. What sort of effect do you think that'll have on nullsec?

Ingvar Angst wrote:
The problem you've ignored is that these probes break wormhole intel gathering mechanics simply by allowing the presence of a cloaked ship to be determined.

So what happened with the suggestion that you could turn off all your mods other than the cloak, and thus be unprobable?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2011-12-20 17:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Lord Zim wrote:

A partial wormhole implementation, where cloaked ships are excempt from showing up in local, yes. What sort of effect do you think that'll have on nullsec?

- Transpor ships will be more usefull
- Recon ships will be more useful on PVP
- Stealth ships will go from hi-sec to null-sec with less bulling
- Gate camps will be much more Fun on Low sec ( and prototype clocking device would be more useful)
- There will be a prober whenever someone is mining....
- And we will have less solo care-beers on low-sec

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#147 - 2011-12-20 17:39:22 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:

Yes, I realize the importance of that, and I also live in a WH.

It only gives Intel WHEN someone uses the probe, and the probe will only be used WHEN someone gets you in the directional, so if someone knows you are there you failed on stealth and should be prepared to run or to PVP. Not to Bear cloaked, cowerings in feer of beeing seen... a fail is a fail.



What? Wow, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. One of the first things people will do when logging into their hole is scan for cloaked ships, right up there with scanning down your sigs to look for K162s, etc.

Basically, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#148 - 2011-12-20 17:41:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You have me mistaken for others that want the removal of local altogether. I don't. I'm advocating for a change in the mechanics of cloaking and local that prevent wormholes from being broken over a non-issue, that maintain the dangerous aspect of nullsec and don't turn it into a daisy-filled playground and that makes intel gathering a more active endevour.

A partial wormhole implementation, where cloaked ships are excempt from showing up in local, yes. What sort of effect do you think that'll have on nullsec?

Ingvar Angst wrote:
The problem you've ignored is that these probes break wormhole intel gathering mechanics simply by allowing the presence of a cloaked ship to be determined.

So what happened with the suggestion that you could turn off all your mods other than the cloak, and thus be unprobable?


1. Already answered with that myriad of posts I just went through.

2. Stupidly thought out idea. Aside from the difficulty of onlining mods as needed in space, there really aren't many extra mods on a scanning ship in the first place.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2011-12-20 17:44:47 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
1. Already answered with that myriad of posts I just went through.

No. We've been discussing the carebears. I'm on to other aspects as well.

What you were looking for is "cloaked ships will be preferred for roams".
Ingvar Angst wrote:
2. Stupidly thought out idea. Aside from the difficulty of onlining mods as needed in space, there really aren't many extra mods on a scanning ship in the first place.

Well, if there aren't any extra mods on a scanning ship for wormhole intel gathering, then wouldn't that fix the problem you're bitching about the probes breaking wormhole intel gathering? You'd still be invisible and undetectable, you just wouldn't be able to do much else.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2011-12-20 17:46:15 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

Yes, I realize the importance of that, and I also live in a WH.

It only gives Intel WHEN someone uses the probe, and the probe will only be used WHEN someone gets you in the directional, so if someone knows you are there you failed on stealth and should be prepared to run or to PVP. Not to Bear cloaked, cowerings in feer of beeing seen... a fail is a fail.



What? Wow, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. One of the first things people will do when logging into their hole is scan for cloaked ships, right up there with scanning down your sigs to look for K162s, etc.

Basically, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.


YEP, that is what they would do, so you should not Bear on other peoples Hole.

Or you could log off when you detect someone setting probes (Yep, this would turn off the ship rendering it undetectable eve with probes, but will not allow you to see out of the capsule)... Strategies...Strategies...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#151 - 2011-12-20 17:51:38 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

Yes, I realize the importance of that, and I also live in a WH.

It only gives Intel WHEN someone uses the probe, and the probe will only be used WHEN someone gets you in the directional, so if someone knows you are there you failed on stealth and should be prepared to run or to PVP. Not to Bear cloaked, cowerings in feer of beeing seen... a fail is a fail.



What? Wow, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. One of the first things people will do when logging into their hole is scan for cloaked ships, right up there with scanning down your sigs to look for K162s, etc.

Basically, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.


YEP, that is what they would do, so you should not Bear on other peoples Hole.

Or you could log off when you detect someone setting probes (Yep, this would turn off the ship rendering it undetectable eve with probes, but will not allow you to see out of the capsule)... Strategies...Strategies...


More fail. First, gathering intel in another hole isn't carebearing... it's gathering intel for a potential future op. Therefore, in order to not tip off your hand, you need to stay as unnoticed as possible. Otherwise you'll change the target's behavior, resulting in things like onlining defenses, removing assets, etc.

Secondly, if you actually did live in wormholes you'd realize that logging off exposes your ship for a period of time until you fully are logged out. This gives away your presence, thus having the same breaking effect.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#152 - 2011-12-20 17:52:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
1. Already answered with that myriad of posts I just went through.

No. We've been discussing the carebears. I'm on to other aspects as well.

What you were looking for is "cloaked ships will be preferred for roams".
Ingvar Angst wrote:
2. Stupidly thought out idea. Aside from the difficulty of onlining mods as needed in space, there really aren't many extra mods on a scanning ship in the first place.

Well, if there aren't any extra mods on a scanning ship for wormhole intel gathering, then wouldn't that fix the problem you're bitching about the probes breaking wormhole intel gathering? You'd still be invisible and undetectable, you just wouldn't be able to do much else.


/facepalm

I think you're just Goon-trolling me now.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2011-12-20 17:55:48 UTC
Why? Are you saying cloaked ships wouldn't be preferred for roams?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-12-20 18:00:14 UTC
the "remove local" idiots should be kicked from EVE, go live in your wormholes... PVP in null sec would not be better without it

I mean look at how little action you dwellers get in WH space... The advantage of being able to see local helps you chase people through systems, without local information, engagements would be reduced to happen more rarely than they do now

as for the fear of "AFK" cloakers in 0.0, it's perfectly fine to fear them, because they are only afk some of the time... and they are rarely alone... often they have a cyno/covert cyno and a gang sitting within jump range... Heck, I done it a bit myself :P Laughing at the people who thought it was safe to start doing havens/sanctums because the neutral in local was proberly "afk"

and doing the anomalies together in a fleet did not save them, just gave more targets :3... going another system because it had a afk cloaker? oh ****, all the good ratting systems also have afk cloakers in them :D lol pwned!

it's not like this all over eve, just mainly the places with alot of people (more targets)

So all the above being said, I personly stopped ratting back when the anomaly nerf came so I have no personal interrest in these mechanics being changed, but I can understand the frustration from these 0.0 carebears point of view, regardless of what the rest of you say. there should be a way to find cloaked stuff, it should just be very very hard and time consumeing and easy to counter (so your only able to find someone afk by spending hours on it, because you have to find the spot in space he might be cloaked at first, with a short scan range)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#155 - 2011-12-20 18:16:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Why? Are you saying cloaked ships wouldn't be preferred for roams?

Since they would die horribly and not be all that effective, no. They will be preferred as roam counters, though.
Bubanni wrote:
as for the fear of "AFK" cloakers in 0.0, it's perfectly fine to fear them, because they are only afk some of the time... and they are rarely alone... often they have a cyno/covert cyno and a gang sitting within jump range... Heck, I done it a bit myself :P Laughing at the people who thought it was safe to start doing havens/sanctums because the neutral in local was proberly "afk"
…in other words, none of the supposed problems have anything to do with cloaking or the AFK-ness of said cloakers.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2011-12-20 18:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Ingvar Angst wrote:


More fail. First, gathering intel in another hole isn't carebearing... it's gathering intel for a potential future op. Therefore, in order to not tip off your hand, you need to stay as unnoticed as possible. Otherwise you'll change the target's behavior, resulting in things like onlining defenses, removing assets, etc.

Secondly, if you actually did live in wormholes you'd realize that logging off exposes your ship for a period of time until you fully are logged out. This gives away your presence, thus having the same breaking effect.


From Eve Wiki - " log out while in space the character will warp to a random point 1,000,000km away and remain there for 1 minute or so."

But it not turn off cloak..

So if they detect you they will probably think you left the WH... and if you was fast enough you will evade their scan... ( Send the ship to warp some AU and log in flight this should buy you some time...)

AND YES, this kind of intell gathering is totaly carebeer!, You should enter, and stay there just as long as you are not detected... this is enough time to decide if the sistem worth atacking or not...

Last time my corp attacked a WH we entered with a prober, he stayed there just 3 hours, just a couple os POS and a lone player... as he logged of, we entered with a BS fleed and we Havly damaged all the guns of a POS... then in the next day, we hoped that him bring a carrier for the repair... but he had not.... so we razed his system to the ground, buble on hisp POS, killed all the probers, poded all his corp players and collapsed the entrance of the wormhole for good... This is not carebeer... but a lone player hided in the system hoping to get some minners in the KB is,,,

So, you are acting carebearly Lol

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2011-12-20 18:20:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Why? Are you saying cloaked ships wouldn't be preferred for roams?

Since they would die horribly and not be all that effective, no. They will be preferred as roam counters, though.

Oh really? What would they die horribly to? What would make them so much better roam counters than roam boats?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#158 - 2011-12-20 18:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh really? What would they die horribly to?
Anything that shot at them. That's the price cloaking ships pay for being able to cloak.
Quote:
What would make them so much better roam counters than roam boats?
Because the roam cannot determine what's in the system, whereas the defenders can easily spot the incoming roam even if they use cloaked ships. Since they're going to be spotted regardless, they might as well bring some actual firepower. Sure, they could spend a few hours getting a good picture of what's in the system, but at that point, people will stop going on roams because nothing ever happens.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2011-12-20 18:28:14 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
the "remove local" idiots should be kicked from EVE, go live in your wormholes... PVP in null sec would not be better without it

I mean look at how little action you dwellers get in WH space... The advantage of being able to see local helps you chase people through systems, without local information, engagements would be reduced to happen more rarely than they do now

...


True, I agree with you.

But did you read anything here or not? We are proposing that CLOAKED SHIPS get removed from local, and they are not that many cloaked ships on low-sec after all... PVP chasing on low-sec would remain almost the same...This will only affect Covert Ops, SOME Strategic cruisers, and black ops... All the rest will be the same...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2011-12-20 18:36:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh really? What would they die horribly to?
Anything that shot at them. That's the price cloaking ships pay for being able to cloak.
Quote:
What would make them so much better roam counters than roam boats?
Because the roam cannot determine what's in the system, whereas the defenders can easily spot the incoming roam even if they use cloaked ships. Since they're going to be spotted regardless, they might as well bring some actual firepower. Sure, they could spend a few hours getting a good picture of what's in the system, but at that point, people will stop going on roams because nothing ever happens.


A gate camp is a counter for a roaming.... A cloak would only change the Intel, from BOTH sides! As you never Know for shure what you will get on a gate camp... nor in a roaming...it will not affect this game much...

Also, a Cloaked T3 or a Cloaked Recon is still a something... don't underestimate them... and don't think that is easy to Instapop one...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system