These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Anti-Cloaking Probes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2011-12-21 04:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Lord Zim wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
By shutting off, I mean offline.


I know, and don't you think that the ship would be useless after that? Well after decloaking you would have enough cap to activate 1 module... the Cyno gen... this would be the only reason for this ship... and this would be abusive...

although if you suggest a new type of ship, that have no modules but the covert cloak device and can't be detected by probes all the time, ... ( like a covert shuttle or something ) that would be Fun!

It's less abusive than a ship that doesn't show up anywhere until they show up a few kilometers from you and warp scrambles you. They want to be impossible to find or even see is there? They're going to have to make a few sacrifices.

Otherwise we're talking about a major buff which will be gamebreaking.


I dont get your point, you want them to be more or less invisible?

They are suposed to be visible on local when entering the system.... also they should be able to get located using probes (in known space and maybe WH-Space)...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#182 - 2011-12-21 04:45:40 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
By shutting off, I mean offline.


I know, and don't you think that the ship would be useless after that? Well after decloaking you would have enough cap to activate 1 module... the Cyno gen... this would be the only reason for this ship... and this would be abusive...

although if you suggest a new type of ship, that have no modules but the covert cloak device and can't be detected by probes all the time, ... ( like a covert shuttle or something ) that would be Fun!

It's less abusive than a ship that doesn't show up anywhere until they show up a few kilometers from you and warp scrambles you. They want to be impossible to find or even see is there? They're going to have to make a few sacrifices.

Otherwise we're talking about a major buff which will be gamebreaking.


I dont get your point, you want them to be more or less invisible?

They are suposed to be visible on local when entering the system.... also they should be able to get located using probes (in known space and maybe WH-Space)...


Don't be breakin' mah wormholes mon.

They're suppsoed to be dangerous. We don't want them to be nerfed. They'll lose their charm.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#183 - 2011-12-21 04:55:14 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
By shutting off, I mean offline.


I know, and don't you think that the ship would be useless after that? Well after decloaking you would have enough cap to activate 1 module... the Cyno gen... this would be the only reason for this ship... and this would be abusive...

although if you suggest a new type of ship, that have no modules but the covert cloak device and can't be detected by probes all the time, ... ( like a covert shuttle or something ) that would be Fun!

It's less abusive than a ship that doesn't show up anywhere until they show up a few kilometers from you and warp scrambles you. They want to be impossible to find or even see is there? They're going to have to make a few sacrifices.

Otherwise we're talking about a major buff which will be gamebreaking.


Show us on the doll where the mean cloaker hurt you. You seem to be taking everything very personally.

An ambush is an ambush, it's supposed to be unfair deceteful and mean. People like to ambush, and modifying local I believe will actually increase 0.0 population. People who sit in enemy systems for days or weeks will then have characters free'd up becuase they don't have to camp 23.5/7. The carebears who can't hack the changes will leave, but they aren't really needed in SOV anyway, they just weaken everything as a whole. What would be left are the people who will fight for there sov, then these people will train better carebears, you know the ones who are willing to adapt.

Whole groups of people could potentially live covertly inside enemy space, and it would help drop the Tritanium Curtain some alliances have on there regions. *cough* Deklien *cough*

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2011-12-21 05:50:33 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
By shutting off, I mean offline.


I know, and don't you think that the ship would be useless after that? Well after decloaking you would have enough cap to activate 1 module... the Cyno gen... this would be the only reason for this ship... and this would be abusive...

although if you suggest a new type of ship, that have no modules but the covert cloak device and can't be detected by probes all the time, ... ( like a covert shuttle or something ) that would be Fun!

It's less abusive than a ship that doesn't show up anywhere until they show up a few kilometers from you and warp scrambles you. They want to be impossible to find or even see is there? They're going to have to make a few sacrifices.

Otherwise we're talking about a major buff which will be gamebreaking.


I dont get your point, you want them to be more or less invisible?

They are suposed to be visible on local when entering the system.... also they should be able to get located using probes (in known space and maybe WH-Space)...


Don't be breakin' mah wormholes mon.

They're suppsoed to be dangerous. We don't want them to be nerfed. They'll lose their charm.


Dont worry... even with these changes it will still be dangerous, And more dangerous then ever... not even cloaked ships will be safe Muhuahuahau Twisted

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2011-12-21 07:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Ingvar Angst wrote:

The running silent idea is crap. Cloaked ships are already disadvantaged enough simply by having to fit a cloak, and this nerf would render ships pretty well useless when they do decloak. But still... there you go lamenting that there's risk in null sec. Gee, we can't have null sec be dangerous or anything like that, can we? Perish the thought.


In my defence....I never said it was a good idea, just an idea, fuelled primarily by too much coffee and not enough sleep.
I was just trying to find an option, in a case where the anti-cloak probe was a reality, to make the type of intel gathering you do possible. At the same time insta-cyno would be harder, and Ambushing with a bomber/ recon harder still.

There would obviously have to be some changes to the way modules were off/ on-lined in order to create balance. Certainly for some ships the ability to on-line mods while maintaining cloak would be required. The point was not so much to force the ambusher to un-cloak, but rather delay the time to full combat effectiveness while simultaneously making the cloaker increasingly vulnerable to the Anti-cloak probes while "powering-up".
How easy it would be to find the cloaker (or even pick up any signal at all) would be a trade off between how many mods the cloaker keeps on-line (for faster ambushing) and the character/ player skill of the prober.

Again, just brainstorming possibilities, not making any claim to them being goodBlink
YuuKnow
The Scope
#186 - 2011-12-21 08:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
10 pages long and 90% of the post are by 4 players...Shocked Really?

First of all, the local debate is an entirely different debate altogether and has been ongoing for the last 8 years. There are some definant drawbacks to removing local and I've listed some in the other Local Debate thread. Namely:

  • 1. Alliances benefit from local. How can a alliance control space when a 1000 ship fleet can literally park next door in a non-local system all in cloaky ships that can never be detected and without any way to counter? This of course would absolutely gimp the ability to claim space or sovereignty... unless-of-course ways to detect those cloaked ships are possible, but then the whole "anti-cloak probes will break the game" whiners will start.

  • 2. It gimps the uniqueness of WH space. WH space is kindof a cool environment not just because of the variable entrances/exits, but because the abscense of local makes it a little edgy. It was supposed to be the solution/option for those that did not want local. Now it won't be so unique.

    • Second of all. This game was played and played well LONG before cloaked ships were even possible. The consistent cry of "THE GAME WILL BE BROKEN!!!!!!!111" Is just stupid.Roll Its like talking to 5 year olds.

    Third of all. If you even read the original post you'll see that this isn't a method that can instantly detect cloaky ships, but a method that with effort may offer a clue that they're there... and only with a lot of effort and a careless prey, can they be found.

    Fourth of all. Every technology should have a counter-tech. RL stealth-plane technology was developed an within the next 20 years there were already ways to detect them (and even shoot them down). A technology that can't be countered is unbalanced.

    yk

    ps) added the above to the first post for those that don't want to shift to 10 pages of TL;DR.
    Torin Corax
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #187 - 2011-12-21 08:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
    YuuKnow wrote:

    Fourth of all. Every technology should have a counter-tech. RL stealth-plane technology was developed an within the next 20 years there were already ways to detect them (and even shoot them down). A technology that can't be countered is unbalanced.

    yk


    Out of curiosity, what is your idea for the counter to the counter-cloak probe? A better cloak that can't be probed unless you have the "counter to the counter of the counter-cloak probe?

    Arms race is all well and good, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere in a game scenario. Cloaks are effectively the only true counter to probes, and a poor counter to local (depending on the intent of the cloaker). They are the counter-tech.

    The reason I'm not a fan of counter-cloak tech is because if you want to "nerf" cloaks, to remain balanced you are going to have to "nerf" the reason they exist in the first place. From what I've seen over the huge number of "Nerf-cloak" threads those calling for a counter are unwilling to accept this. At least, not in any realistically "balanced" sense.
    Commandante Caldari
    Best Kept Dunked
    OnlyFleets.
    #188 - 2011-12-21 11:55:33 UTC
    Probing a cloaker is in general a bad idea. If the ship is sitting around a gate, station etc. what is mainly useful for intel you just need to place the "anti-cloaker probes" there and catch the cloaker with one hit.

    The only useful mechanic would probably a cycle on the cloak mod what you need to renew every X minutes otherwise the ship will be decloaked. But this would just bring up another small macro app to do it afk.

    Let us stop the discussion because it's mentioned so many times. CCP is aware of it and it's their job to keep it how it is or change it.
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #189 - 2011-12-21 14:22:21 UTC
    YuuKnow wrote:
    First of all, the local debate is an entirely different debate altogether and has been ongoing for the last 8 years.
    Wrong, AFKing is directly related to local in the method of psychological warfare.

    YuuKnow wrote:
    1. Alliances benefit from local. How can a alliance control space when a 1000 ship fleet can literally park next door in a non-local system all in cloaky ships that can never be detected and without any way to counter? This of course would absolutely gimp the ability to claim space or sovereignty... unless-of-course ways to detect those cloaked ships are possible, but then the whole "anti-cloak probes will break the game" whiners will start.
    No one with any sense of balance, wants the simple removal of local without a package of changes to take it's place. In that package could also be changes to cloaks. But they have to take into account all areas of eve when doing so and change the mechanic of cloaks in a way, as not to seriously affect their use.

    YuuKnow wrote:
    Second of all. This game was played and played well LONG before cloaked ships were even possible. The consistent cry of "THE GAME WILL BE BROKEN!!!!!!!111" Is just stupid.Roll Its like talking to 5 year olds.
    Cloaks arrived in 2004, we 5 year olds were around when it happened.

    YuuKnow wrote:
    Third of all. If you even read the original post you'll see that this isn't a method that can instantly detect cloaky ships, but a method that with effort may offer a clue that they're there... and only with a lot of effort and a careless prey, can they be found.
    Yes and it breaks cloaks without addressing the cause for AFKing. It also adds another layer of intel power on top of the already powerful local intel channel. That is not a balanced approach.

    YuuKnow wrote:
    Fourth of all. Every technology should have a counter-tech. RL stealth-plane technology was developed an within the next 20 years there were already ways to detect them (and even shoot them down). A technology that can't be countered is unbalanced.
    They are balance and indeed do have counters. Oh and in terms of game play mechanics, RL analogies are always bad.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Lucien Visteen
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #190 - 2011-12-21 14:55:44 UTC
    Commandante Caldari wrote:
    Probing a cloaker is in general a bad idea. If the ship is sitting around a gate, station etc. what is mainly useful for intel you just need to place the "anti-cloaker probes" there and catch the cloaker with one hit.

    The only useful mechanic would probably a cycle on the cloak mod what you need to renew every X minutes otherwise the ship will be decloaked. But this would just bring up another small macro app to do it afk.

    Let us stop the discussion because it's mentioned so many times. CCP is aware of it and it's their job to keep it how it is or change it.


    I havent seen anyone in this thread say they want an instant detection system. And while I can't speak for the others, I believe that they, as myself, understands that the cloak module is a very important module for a great number of reasons. And we are not out to ruin that. But the afk part is a static abuse of a system that I hope is not intended for by CCP.

    No mere probe should be able to decloak a ship, if you are under the belief that 'that' is what we want, then I suggest you read through this one more time and show me where it says that the probe will decloak a hostile ship. A player that uses the system actively will be as safe as always.

    The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #191 - 2011-12-21 16:01:11 UTC
    Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
    Show us on the doll where the mean cloaker hurt you. You seem to be taking everything very personally.

    I'm not taking it personally, I'm arguing against a specific set of dumb changes. I don't give a flying **** about someone sitting cloaked in a system I base out of when I go on ops, because they don't matter one whit at that point. It's the carebears who try to actually live there which will care, and when their risk goes up, they will leave, leading to a much emptier space and even less targets for these new cloaked roaming gangs (or any gang if we do away with local in its entirety).

    Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
    An ambush is an ambush, it's supposed to be unfair deceteful and mean. People like to ambush, and modifying local I believe will actually increase 0.0 population. People who sit in enemy systems for days or weeks will then have characters free'd up becuase they don't have to camp 23.5/7. The carebears who can't hack the changes will leave, but they aren't really needed in SOV anyway, they just weaken everything as a whole. What would be left are the people who will fight for there sov, then these people will train better carebears, you know the ones who are willing to adapt.

    First of all, nullsec population is already low, after the anom nerf and introduction of incursions. This is fact, and this was purely based on the reduction in reward in nullsec. And now you're saying that an increase in risk should end up with a more populous nullsec, because suddenly, somehow, there'll be more carebears that'll flock out to nullsec to be trained?

    Ok.

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Alx Warlord
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #192 - 2011-12-21 16:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
    YuuKnow wrote:
    Anti cloaking probes to pinpoint those AFK cloakers. Or WH cloakers

    They would require Level 5 skills in
    1. Cloaking Level 5
    2. Astrometric pinpointing Level 5
    3. Astrometric range finding Level 5

    Each probe would be counterdetected easilty and visible on the scanner (or even overhead), easily. Each scan would take 3 minutes for a total scan time (to narrow down the cloaker) of about 15 minutes.

    Opinions?

    yk

    Edit: Additional ideas on how the probes would be balanced

    1. Anticloaking probes can have a drawback in that it can't distinguish between a ship and any other anamoly even at 100% signal strength... only that a 'gravitometric/magnetometric anamoly detected'. This could be the main drawback to this type of probe in that unlike other probes they can't give as much specifics to tell if its actually a ship or not even at 100% strenght. It will take some effort, trial/error and familirity to the environment as well as some luck.

    2. Again, these probes will have much longer scan times than normal probes. When the probes themselves are detected on the scanner by the cloaky (yes, a cloaky should have to use the scanner just like a noncloaky), the long scan time will give the cloaky plenty of time to warp to another location before the probes finishes scanning. To the ship that was doing the probing it will just look like a false anamoly. Unless of course the cloaky is afk on the couch watching TV, not paying attention.

    3. The anti-cloak probe could have a limited scan range (say only 8AUs) making it more clumsy to use.

    4. It could also take a few more level 5 skills (some of the science skills) to make it a skill not easilty acquired.
    EDIT 2: In response to some of the "remove local arguments" later in the thread as well as the "The game will be broken!!!" arguments

    This is not the "Local debate". Local is an entirely different debate altogether and has been ongoing for the last 8 years. There are some definant drawbacks to removing local and I've listed some in the other Local Debate thread. Namely:
    • 1. Alliances benefit from local. How can a alliance control space when a 1000 ship fleet can literally park next door in a non-local system all in cloaky ships that can never be detected and without any way to counter? This of course would absolutely gimp the ability to claim space or sovereignty... unless-of-course ways to detect those cloaked ships are possible, but then the whole "anti-cloak probes will break the game" whiners will start.
    • 2. It gimps the uniqueness of WH space. WH space is kindof a cool environment not just because of the variable entrances/exits, but because the abscense of local makes it a little edgy. It was supposed to be the solution/option for those that did not want local. Now it won't be so unique.

    Second of all. In response to "THE GAME WILL BE BROKEN!!!!!!!111" post below; this game was played and played well LONG before cloaked ships were even possible. The consistent cry of "THE GAME WILL BE BROKEN!!!!!!!111" Is stupid.

    Third of all. If you even read the original post you'll see that this isn't a method that can instantly detect cloaky ships, but a method that with effort may offer a clue that they're there... and only with a lot of effort and a careless prey, can they be found.

    That is all. Carry on.Smile

    yk


    Ok, so everyone agree that the only way to this gets balanced is that BOTH CHANGES, the probes that allow cloak DETECTION and the removal of CLOAKED SHIPS from the local, gets implemented together?

    So this system will requires WORK on the parts of the hunted and the hunter makes for tension, excitement and most importantly, game play. Less "I win" buttons, more pilot vs pilot solutions.

  • This way there will be a end to the afk cloak problem, (that kill the game for allot of players)...
  • Stealth operations will depend more on strategies and RL Skill to run unnoticed...
  • If noticed will need some RL Skill and Strategies to not get caught.
  • There will be a counter to Cloak, as every tactic should have a counter tactic and risk...
  • There will be a possibility for CCP to adjust the DIFFICULT LEVEL of the detection adjusting the probe stats...
  • The game will make more Sense...

    • So we can keep the discussion from here...

    Please read these!

    New POS system New SOV system
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #193 - 2011-12-21 17:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
    Lucien Visteen wrote:
    Commandante Caldari wrote:
    Probing a cloaker is in general a bad idea. If the ship is sitting around a gate, station etc. what is mainly useful for intel you just need to place the "anti-cloaker probes" there and catch the cloaker with one hit.

    The only useful mechanic would probably a cycle on the cloak mod what you need to renew every X minutes otherwise the ship will be decloaked. But this would just bring up another small macro app to do it afk.

    Let us stop the discussion because it's mentioned so many times. CCP is aware of it and it's their job to keep it how it is or change it.


    I havent seen anyone in this thread say they want an instant detection system. And while I can't speak for the others, I believe that they, as myself, understands that the cloak module is a very important module for a great number of reasons. And we are not out to ruin that. But the afk part is a static abuse of a system that I hope is not intended for by CCP.

    No mere probe should be able to decloak a ship, if you are under the belief that 'that' is what we want, then I suggest you read through this one more time and show me where it says that the probe will decloak a hostile ship. A player that uses the system actively will be as safe as always.


    The problem that you're missing is that a single probe in a wormhole can be used to detect the presence of a cloaked vessel that's actively gathering required intel in preparations for an op. That free knowledge can completely change the behavior of the residents (it happened to me, and the knowledge helped stave off an invasion), spoiling the op.

    The intel should be earned or discovered due to a mistake on the aggressor... not due to a new, mandatory cloak breaking mechanic.

    Oh, and Alx, it's the detection part that I have the greatest issue with due to the deleterious effects it would have on normal wormhole operations.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #194 - 2011-12-21 17:57:18 UTC
    So run silent, then. Voila, no detection.

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #195 - 2011-12-21 18:05:20 UTC
    Lord Zim wrote:
    So run silent, then. Voila, no detection.


    Cloaking is running silent. There should already be no detection. Your idea renders ships completely unable to defend themselves or participate in combat for a significant period of time, well beyond the current penalty for a non-covops vessel to endure when decloaking.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #196 - 2011-12-21 18:13:41 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    Lord Zim wrote:
    So run silent, then. Voila, no detection.


    Cloaking is running silent. There should already be no detection. Your idea renders ships completely unable to defend themselves or participate in combat for a significant period of time, well beyond the current penalty for a non-covops vessel to endure when decloaking.

    Cloaking is running underwater. Running silent is running underwater with everything shut off to avoid detection. So you have a warmup period when you're on intel duty, oh well so sad, the carebears you want to gank have a chance of seeing that you're in system if they're vigilant.

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #197 - 2011-12-21 18:19:07 UTC
    Lord Zim wrote:
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    Lord Zim wrote:
    So run silent, then. Voila, no detection.


    Cloaking is running silent. There should already be no detection. Your idea renders ships completely unable to defend themselves or participate in combat for a significant period of time, well beyond the current penalty for a non-covops vessel to endure when decloaking.

    Cloaking is running underwater. Running silent is running underwater with everything shut off to avoid detection. So you have a warmup period when you're on intel duty, oh well so sad, the carebears you want to gank have a chance of seeing that you're in system if they're vigilant.


    So, basically, you don't give a rat's ass what other parts of the game you break so long as you get things to work the way you decide they should in your little corner of the game.

    This is why this concept will likely never see the light of day.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #198 - 2011-12-21 20:28:47 UTC
    The only bitching I've seen you come up with for this is how you'll be defenseless after you've gone into silent mode.

    You're the one that want to make cloaked ships invisible as a whole, so that if carebears want to rat or mine somewhere, they'll basically have to have an escort for each ship, a fleet on standby, one or more to watch each gate and wormhole entrance, making the ever important (to carebears at least) isk/hour awful for nullsec, and hisec will suddenly look vastly more interesting.

    What I've done is I've thought of how to make the combination removing cloaked ships from local, probe can find non-silent yet cloaked ships, and silent and cloaked ships are impervious to anything except decloaking through proximity work, which would make nullsec riskier without making it a grindfest from hell. Which your suggestion would've.

    And you're complaining that because I'm adding a minor change to the whole probe idea, I'm giving no fucks what other parts of the game I break?

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Haruhi Hime
    The Brony Herd
    #199 - 2011-12-21 21:14:19 UTC
    This must have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm lazy to look back but:

    Doesn't flying in a random direction while cloaked afk completely beat out your "solution"?
    YuuKnow
    The Scope
    #200 - 2011-12-22 00:47:43 UTC
    Haruhi Hime wrote:
    This must have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm lazy to look back but:

    Doesn't flying in a random direction while cloaked afk completely beat out your "solution"?


    I don't think so.