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The Worst (allegedly) Marauders

Author
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#21 - 2015-11-13 17:10:14 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare

The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.

I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.



ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them.

All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.

My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.



The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.



Oh I know. I'm just saying that ASB allows smaller fleets to fight (or try to fight) above their weight class. I get it - you don't like them. I'm OK w/ that. I'm OK w/ a larger fleet bringing and ASB fleet and having to call 'no joy' and bug out. It opens up a lot of midsized shield ships some local rep options that just weren't there before. For me it's plus AND minus. You win some and you lose some. If I won them all, I'd have to change my name to Vimsy, and that would be a true abomination.

My opinion on marauders w/ XL ASB - not good. Goon-X XL reppers are dirt cheap due to overfarming, so Gist-X repper w/ cap booster is a much better way to go so you don't die during reload.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#22 - 2015-11-13 17:14:17 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.



But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work.

You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. Big smileShockedBig smileP


Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening.

The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is.

The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable.



I don't fight in HS much anymore. We don't have enough guys to run logi. We don't have nuetral reps. We don't have neutral scouts watching every gate w/in 3 jumps. The paladin is a 'round 2' ship after your get jammed of the field in round 1.

Not everyone plays eve in safe mode sweety. Some of us just go for it with what we have available at a moments notice.
Shitposting Forum Alt
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-11-14 00:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shitposting Forum Alt
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.

hahahahahahahahahaha.

I hope you're not serious.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#24 - 2015-11-14 01:01:07 UTC
Well nobody has complaints about the golem. So lets throw that out.

I don't think people have complaints about the Vargur (have they?, I don't see them a ton).

Leaves the Kronos and the Paladin.

.... yea the most you can do is load them with heavy drones to give them the added umph... I guess.

Yaay!!!!

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-11-14 01:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
First off, marauders are pve ships.
Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.

Been around since the beginning.

Shitposting Forum Alt
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-11-14 01:26:48 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
First off, marauders are pve ships.
Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.

Mmmmmm how exactly can a Paladin run its reps if it's being neuted by 2 Bhaalgorns... because the ASB ships can. See thats the thing with Marauders, they are ewar immune but not neut immune, except if you're an ASB Golem or Vargur. Thats why its unbalanced, not because its neut immune, but because its immune to everything but raw DPS.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-11-14 02:27:04 UTC
I think you guys just don't know how to use a regular shield booster. ASBs are nice, but they are hardly some overpowered monster item.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Justin Cody
War Firm
#28 - 2015-11-14 08:19:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
BABARR wrote:
Marauder are not designed for PVP.
CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all.


From the thread for their rebalance.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.

We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well.


You might be a hero.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#29 - 2015-11-14 08:26:27 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
First off, marauders are pve ships.
Second, the paladin is very good for pvp. Not as much as the golem or the vargur but it does quite well. Properly setup even if neuted it can still run its tank and weapons.


They are not. You are wrong. Witness all the carriers I have held down with a golem or kronos. The Vargur is good...just bought one so that will be making noise soon.

My paladin is hawt and skinned with the raata sunset skin. However - it is not as useful as the Kronos in general. I'll probably save it for more use after the capital changes when I presumable won't get 2 shotted by a dread in siege.

Also - all of them need a better capacitor recharge rate in bastion (T2 Bastion plz?)

The Paladin is find for structures or BC+ sized targets. But as a solo ship it is mostly worthless.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-11-14 16:21:28 UTC
A Vargur can fit 3 x XLASB.
A Golem can fit 3 x LASB, but does so with rapid heavy missiles for better application.


The ships have their native advantages of weapons not using cap, but the underlying issue is the stacking of ASBs.
That said, ASB are virtually useless if you can't stack them, as you can get better outcome with an XLSB and 2 cap boosters.
Sure, you wouldn't boost for as much, but you'd be able to boost more often.

LAARs have the advantage of running more cycles, but still require cap, and can't be stacked, but armor tanks typically have more EHP.
If they removed the cap usage of AARs, then the Kronos, and especially Paladin, would perform much better.


Having said all that, I would prefer they're all removed entirely, but that likely won't happen.



Side note...
What we should be worrying about here is if CCP is going to take ewar immunity away from bastion.
As it sits now, they've already stated they're removing immunity from caps and going to ewar resistance.

Marauders are gonna suck again if they don't have the full effect of immunity, seeing as how they can't receive remote assistance if using bastion.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-11-15 02:22:12 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.

No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense.

My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus.

By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity.

The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway.

It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.


Agreed.

I believe CCP design the Paladins this way so as to not obsolete the NMs.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-11-15 14:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.



There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.

So what do the armor marauder have against neuts? nothing. thats right. the Cap battery is crap

inb4 shield paladin

the asb was a flawed design, and only created for crapmatar ships that were lacking mids.

then they said well we need a armor asb too. lets limit it to 1, and make it crap.


It's true that the Cap Batteries and AARs are garbage but for some reason, CCP don't think they need addressing. Instead of complaining about how OP the ASBs are, I wish players would instead start complaining about how UN-OP the cap batteries and AARs are.


I would actually prefer if CCP gave the Armor Marauders a much more powerful cap recharge & capacity and the Shield Marauders a much larger cargo bay capacity.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-11-15 15:14:16 UTC
For those complaining about the Paladin...

It already has a larger cap recharge rate AND capacity than the Kronos - so much so that even firing the highest-cap ammo still gives it a longer cap life than the Kronos. In fact it has the best recharge and cap pool of any marauder. So yes, better cap recharge/capacity is already baked into the hull - but that's just the thing, people don't see things that aren't bonuses.

It also doesn't seem to need any application bonuses either. Pulse are awesome for tracking - maybe not as great as blasters, but I don't have any trouble hitting plenty of targets even before I use scripted tracking comps.

It's just my opinion - but I love my Paladin just the way it is. I don't want people messing with it, because if you get something given CCP will have to take something away and as I said, I like it precisely how it is now. It's a fantastic ship. All of the Marauders are.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#34 - 2015-11-15 20:31:58 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
For those complaining about the Paladin...

It already has a larger cap recharge rate AND capacity than the Kronos - so much so that even firing the highest-cap ammo still gives it a longer cap life than the Kronos. In fact it has the best recharge and cap pool of any marauder. So yes, better cap recharge/capacity is already baked into the hull - but that's just the thing, people don't see things that aren't bonuses.

It also doesn't seem to need any application bonuses either. Pulse are awesome for tracking - maybe not as great as blasters, but I don't have any trouble hitting plenty of targets even before I use scripted tracking comps.

It's just my opinion - but I love my Paladin just the way it is. I don't want people messing with it, because if you get something given CCP will have to take something away and as I said, I like it precisely how it is now. It's a fantastic ship. All of the Marauders are.


Completely agree.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-11-16 02:06:36 UTC
The most powerful form of combat in Eve is Cap Warfare because neuts are OP as hell without any counters aside from ASBs. For this reason the Shield Marauders are good for both PVE and PVP and can be used everywhere. By contrast the Armor Marauders are entirely cap dependant and are extremely vulnerable to cap warfare which makes them only good for PVE in protective environments. They cannot be used solo unlike the Shield Marauders and are in dire need of a recompense for their extreme vulnerablity against cap warfare.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2015-11-16 02:18:38 UTC
You mean you don't use a cap booster?
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-11-16 04:02:05 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
The most powerful form of combat in Eve is Cap Warfare because neuts are OP as hell without any counters aside from ASBs. For this reason the Shield Marauders are good for both PVE and PVP and can be used everywhere. By contrast the Armor Marauders are entirely cap dependant and are extremely vulnerable to cap warfare which makes them only good for PVE in protective environments. They cannot be used solo unlike the Shield Marauders and are in dire need of a recompense for their extreme vulnerablity against cap warfare.


I'd say that's an iffy assertion.

Yes, after a point, cap warfare is the most powerful form. But getting to that point is the problem. If you jam someone, they're immediately out of the fight. If you turret disrupt someone, they are immediately gimped. If you start neuting someone, it doesn't really effect them until they have to start turning off active modules. Depending on the size of the ship and the size of the offensive neut, this takes a varying amount of time. The fight might end before the neut has had time to really cause an impact on the outcome. Not to mention that neuts already take a lot of cap to activate in the first place (and a lot of fitting resources), so the host ship isn't getting this for free either. With the incoming neut nerf, you can't even be guaranteed anymore that you'll be neuting more than you're draining yourself by activating the module.

Besides, there's a ton of counters already. As you pointed out, ASB - capless shield tanking, dependent on cargo. Cap boosters - from what I understand it's almost a stable of every PvP ship regardless. It's no secret that running a bunch of active modules - including tank, prop, point, weapons, etc, runs your capacitor dry on it's own. Hence why people already equip cap boosters, which already counter neuts very effectively.

I think that what needs to change is cap batteries need a very significant reduction in their fitting requirements across all sizes. Some people have put forth ideas on changing how cap batteries work. That's great and I support that, but until that happens, their current use does not warrant the resources the modules take up. Cut the fittings in half at the very least, and if they are made more useful we can talk about upping the requirements again. Make batteries easier to equip, more people will do so, and neuting will have a harder time taking effect.

(I've had one, one opponent equip a cap battery when I've been neuting him. I can't imagine how much he had to gimp his setup to use it, and it didn't help him at all. So like I said, for what these modules bring, which is virtually nothing, they need reduced fitting)

That a bit of an aside, though. You are correct that the armor marauders are a bit worse off in general, but that's the nature of armor and shield tanking being different and having different strengths. I like that EvE has interesting differences in that way because that means choices matter a bit more, instead of a system where everything *generally* works so it doesn't matter as much what you bring.
Kitten Ripper
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-11-16 10:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitten Ripper
Justin Cody wrote:
...
I can fit cap batteries to help against neuts and such. That I don't mind. Of course I'd like a look at cap batteries to see if their fittings need adjustment as well as if they are effective enough at countering nos/neut warfare. I'm sorta ignorant as to their effectiveness. Maybe people can clear up that part....

o7

So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#39 - 2015-11-16 12:56:24 UTC
Kitten Ripper wrote:

So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?

Massive fitting costs. Still don't keep up with neuts.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2015-11-16 13:02:16 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kitten Ripper wrote:

So what is wrong with fitting NOSes? Or is this another of your "sorta ignorant" things?

Massive fitting costs. Still don't keep up with neuts.


Also probably doesn't keep up with cap consumption. Also assumes target will stay within NOS range. Also assumes a Marauder, a battleship-sized slowboating monster whose special ability is sitting still, might have a chance to chase down and NOS a fool.

Unlikely. NOS are an option, but unlikely to fulfill a need in this case.