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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Why do off grid links exist?
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Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#361 - 2015-12-21 23:36:07 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.


Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#362 - 2015-12-22 02:39:10 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
combat pilot + links > combat pilot

But also......

mining pilot + mining pilot > mining pilot

mission pilot + mission pilot > mission pilot

market hub alt + market hub alt > market hub alt

combat pilot + ecm pilot > combat pilot

combat pilot + logi pilot > logi pilot

It goes on forever. I'm pretty sure I never saw an ad for eve online that stated anything like "one account is all you'll ever want/need"

But I guess links were the singular reason for the downfall of solo pvp and he'll not hear anything to the contrary.

edit

This is eve online, the game where players do anything to win. Underhanded tactics have been celebrated for as long as I've played the game.

If not links, it'll be logi alts or ecm alts or whatever else creative players come up with. A lot of people do stuff like that, and the logi alts even make kills look like they were solo. Is it dirty? Yeah. Is it unfair? Yes.

Even if ccp put in some ******* karma score to reward players for being honest, it would be the mission of the majority of players to accrue as negative a karma score as possible because that's just our nature.

The loss of offgrid links would just cause people to adapt. Then people would ***** about whatever "underhanded" thing replaced them. CCPLZ no more than one logistics ship allowed on any given grid. CCPLZ delete all ecm drones/ships. CCPLZ give me a box in options menu so that only one other ship can ever be on grid with me.


Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.

Other combat alts provide far less of an advantage in terms of leveling the playing field against higher numbers, while entailing greater risk



You're talking about kiting. Multiple pilots against a kiting pilot can work if you position yourself right, he'll either get caught or forced off.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#363 - 2015-12-22 14:24:27 UTC
Someone proposed an idea in Player Features and Ideas.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460705&find=unread
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#364 - 2015-12-22 14:46:03 UTC
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?

its not as if it cant be done
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#365 - 2015-12-22 14:56:40 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?

its not as if it cant be done


Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#366 - 2015-12-22 15:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Osoka's link is about making links spread by squad and not hierarchically trickle down to an entire wing, when you have skilled squad commanders. It's an interesting idea. It may be a solution, but you will only have five off grid boosters instead of one. It would be strange and I would rather see one ship boosting on-grid than encourage the already prevalent mindset that you must have additional accounts to be fully effective. Multiple accounts lead to burn out, imo.
Tung Yoggi
University of Caille
#367 - 2015-12-22 16:25:18 UTC
Stop clinging to your soon dead mechanic, fly free and lose implants, or get friends with leadership skills.

If you were used to a certain level of performance which won't be achievable "solo" after this god-blessed patch, prepare to adjust your expectations and everything will be fine.

The non-stop fake-solo links users will only be punished for sticking to a very specific kind of gameplay, which is quite a terrible idea when playing a MMO game whose developers keep on "balancing" every now and then.

Im pretty sure at least one of you has told "adapt or die" to someone in the same situation. It might be your turn now.

ps: i had an alt and sold it months ago, i'm well aware of the difference it makes
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#368 - 2015-12-22 17:56:26 UTC
Tung Yoggi wrote:
Stop clinging to your soon dead mechanic, fly free and lose implants, or get friends with leadership skills.

If you were used to a certain level of performance which won't be achievable "solo" after this god-blessed patch, prepare to adjust your expectations and everything will be fine.

The non-stop fake-solo links users will only be punished for sticking to a very specific kind of gameplay, which is quite a terrible idea when playing a MMO game whose developers keep on "balancing" every now and then.

Im pretty sure at least one of you has told "adapt or die" to someone in the same situation. It might be your turn now.

ps: i had an alt and sold it months ago, i'm well aware of the difference it makes


Welcome to the thread, and thanks for not reading any of what went on before. We'll treat your response with the same disregard you have for reading what went on before.
Tung Yoggi
University of Caille
#369 - 2015-12-22 18:55:24 UTC
Oh i read quite a lot of it, sorry to contradict you. I have just not read anything that would convince me that keeping the game as it is regarding ogbs is a good idea.

Would I receive the same warm welcome if I showed another opinion, for instance being against the inevitable change to boosting mechanics ?

If you read my last post I'm hoping for something new and fresh that will make flying link ships interesting. I just wanted people.to stop beating the dead horse and look towards the future without the inevitable "muh links" and "muh precious playstyle" posts.
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#370 - 2015-12-22 19:59:52 UTC
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/679385773511061508

Hope you didnt plan on orbiting at 5000km with oversized mwd on your link alt.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#371 - 2015-12-22 21:06:05 UTC
lol.. Anchor on links!

Well, I just hope that they will add ...100) - 250 - 500 - 1000, etc. to grid warp selections.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#372 - 2015-12-22 21:21:40 UTC
i was warned of this.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#373 - 2015-12-22 21:50:19 UTC
Longdrinks wrote:
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/679385773511061508

Hope you didnt plan on orbiting at 5000km with oversized mwd on your link alt.


How cute, a twitter reply. Haven't seen a dev blog article on it yet though.

So far, still haven't seen a way they will balance this for hisec. Kinda hard to shoot a neutral alt flying links in hisec without getting Concorded.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2015-12-23 02:34:24 UTC
Lucy Callagan wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.


Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.


You literally cannot catch a linked, snaked, defensive scram-fit orthrus or garmur without links of your own. Unless he does something laughably stupid. The garmur does 11k hot and scrams at 25-26k with domination, the orthrus does 6k hot and kills frigates in 4 shots max (if you have a shield buffer fit with high resists).

You can make it leave grid with a griffin, maulus, or sniper corms but he can still harass you any time your fleet splits up or your ewar is out of position and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of having a virtue prober devoting 100% effort to forcing the booster to keep moving.

So you either need a vastly outsized investment of resources or a fully active player in a specific fit, just to achieve a standoff against a single pilot and his semi-afk alt.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2015-12-23 02:47:18 UTC
George Gouillot wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?

its not as if it cant be done


Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.


If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input.

Which is the entire problem. Links are ALWAYS the best choice over any other form of combat assistance alt. They provide the most benefit for the least risk. There's no tradeoff or incentive to choose something else. Before this OGB change was announced, when people asked what they should train their alt into, the unequivocal answer was always "links." Because the risk/reward on OGB is vastly superior to anything else you do with a multiboxed alt.

And when I see people who have flown both with and against links arguing that this isn't the case, it boggles my mind. Because it's just so obvious how broken they are, it shouldn't even require argument. Compared to logi, ecm, additional dps - the versatility and scope of benefit provided by links is on another planet. One logi or ecm ship pales in conparison to increased speed, EHP, point range, lock range, and sig radius reduction for an entire fleet while requiring far less pilot input.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#376 - 2015-12-23 03:17:40 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?

its not as if it cant be done


Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.


If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input.

Which is the entire problem. Links are ALWAYS the best choice over any other form of combat assistance alt. They provide the most benefit for the least risk. There's no tradeoff or incentive to choose something else. Before this OGB change was announced, when people asked what they should train their alt into, the unequivocal answer was always "links." Because the risk/reward on OGB is vastly superior to anything else you do with a multiboxed alt.

And when I see people who have flown both with and against links arguing that this isn't the case, it boggles my mind. Because it's just so obvious how broken they are, it shouldn't even require argument. Compared to logi, ecm, additional dps - the versatility and scope of benefit provided by links is on another planet. One logi or ecm ship pales in conparison to increased speed, EHP, point range, lock range, and sig radius reduction for an entire fleet while requiring far less pilot input.


Except a link alt can probe down someone running a DED-rated site. you know, so you can kill them, or take their site. Either way you win because you get the deadspace loot.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#377 - 2015-12-23 04:52:47 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?

its not as if it cant be done


Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.


If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input.


The first one seems to be useful in a few situations, one of which is what you consider the biggest problem in the game.

From one side of your mouth you say that OGB are prolific and ruin gameplay all over new eden, and from the other side you say that a counter to boosts wouldnt be of much use.

I know why boosts make you angry and i know why you dont put effort in to counter them. Both are the same reason, you are lazy and dislike uncertainty. Personally, i have always admired people who put effort in to solve their problems rather than just complain.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2015-12-23 09:22:16 UTC
you leave ur links in a safe you ARE taking a risk, u leave ur links on gate u ARE taking a risk same on a station now that command destroyers are here.

and u dont need a full probing set of implants that kill i posted i didnt have scanning implants. i guess he wasnt fit quite right but its still proof that not everyone is min maxing everything and that links can be killed.

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#379 - 2015-12-23 16:05:06 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
you leave ur links in a safe you ARE taking a risk, u leave ur links on gate u ARE taking a risk same on a station now that command destroyers are here.

and u dont need a full probing set of implants that kill i posted i didnt have scanning implants. i guess he wasnt fit quite right but its still proof that not everyone is min maxing everything and that links can be killed.



If a T3 is fit with ECCM mods, then he is running with a few less warfare links, since command processors take up mid slots and a lot of CPU.

Someone flying a T3C OGB for max boosts is going to be easy to scan down and have no tank.
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#380 - 2015-12-23 19:09:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Lucy Callagan wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.


Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.


You literally cannot catch a linked, snaked, defensive scram-fit orthrus or garmur without links of your own. Unless he does something laughably stupid. The garmur does 11k hot and scrams at 25-26k with domination, the orthrus does 6k hot and kills frigates in 4 shots max (if you have a shield buffer fit with high resists).

You can make it leave grid with a griffin, maulus, or sniper corms but he can still harass you any time your fleet splits up or your ewar is out of position and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of having a virtue prober devoting 100% effort to forcing the booster to keep moving.

So you either need a vastly outsized investment of resources or a fully active player in a specific fit, just to achieve a standoff against a single pilot and his semi-afk alt.


rapier + keres, any decent gang has one of those (at least I often do)