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Why do off grid links exist?
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Shelick
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2015-12-14 05:21:58 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:

not everyone has links. links wont win u every fight. they give u an edge.

Daerrol wrote:

My point is this: I am terrible at PVP. Like the worst. I can still make some kills though, what's your excuse?

Abannans Forum Alt wrote:
chances are, the guy who killed you with links would've probably killed you without them too


Posts like these are missing the point of why OGBs are so terrible.

The stats you gain from an AFK T3 alt are insanely over powered for their price, this is well documented. You get advantages you can't get anywhere else in the game for such a cheap price.

On top of those epic bonuses, the AFK T3 alt can also Cov Ops cloak, is very difficult to probe down, is interdiction nullified, and so is at very little risk itself.

Plus, the idea of creating a second account, training it for six months (just a vague estimation, I don't care if I'm technically wrong; I think you can get the point), and then dragging this secret alt around with you everywhere you go for PvP, is just really lame gameplay, I mean come on, that is such garbage. Does anyone really feel good or have fun dragging a Loki around with their main everywhere they go so that they can be risk averse with a cloaky nullified scout that boosts them from a safe spot every time they decide they want to fight? Sorry but that is just plain stupid.

I have an alt that just finished training for Loki, I used it a few times last month (I admit the actual PvP I did was pretty fun), but I've put it away and I'm going to sell the account (or the character, I'm not exactly sure how that works) based on principle. This type of gameplay is just too boring. It's boring, it's lame, it's any bad word you want to call it, but it's anything but interesting.

Of course links are not the only thing that matters, or they won't win you every fight, and it's not impossible to beat someone who used links, but that's all beside the point; links are insanely OP, they're relatively inexpensive, there's almost no risk involved in using them, and the gameplay itself that they provide is just garbage. It's an AFK second account that sits in space and gives your ship steroids. Wow, so awesome. /s

Links are cancer. They're the opposite of fun or interesting gameplay and they're completely imbalanced.

That's all I have to say about that. It's the last post I'll make in this thread, I didn't want to post in here again because it's redundant but I couldn't sleep thinking about it :D

Links are going to get fixed, you can be sure of that. There's no way around it, it's obvious how bad they are and a change is inevitable.


So just because you think this type of gameplay is boring, everybody else should sell their characters too and stop using offgrid boosts?

GTFO
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#262 - 2015-12-14 06:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
Links on grid will be cool. Especially since grid is now 8000km. Still gonna need those probers.


People really think they're just going to take the existing links and make them "on grid", huh? Roll

It's almost certainly going to be a total rework and it is very, very doubtful that you are going to be sitting at the ass-end of a 7800km grid to boost. They specifically said AOE effects. Just look at Command Destroyers. Those were not designed for a future where the only thing a booster ship has to do is turn on their links and try to avoid dying, preferably by not actually being anywhere near the violence.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#263 - 2015-12-14 09:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
I like my scram range active armor tanking. Without links, doing that against multiple opponents would be suicide every time.....rather than just suicide every other time. Big smile

With the way the game has changed the last few years, active armor tanking has taken a decidedly big nosedive in performance.

- Links were nerfed
- ASBs were introduced which make armor much less attractive
- Resist bonuses on hulls were nerfed
- Armor rep amount bonuses went from 10% per level to 7.5%
- The dps on practically everything got buffed

The last one is the big one. Weapon damage increased, fitting requirements were reduced, ships got increased fittings.......certain ships got application bonuses, some got drones or additional drones....some cruisers got an additional mid that's often another web for better application......we have new launchers specialized in burst dps....

Ships do more damage and apply it better than they did just a few years ago. At the same time the maximum dps that can be tanked has gone down.

A lot of people don't like links, but they make the impossible possible.

I'm a dirty rotten link user. I fight in scram range with a beefy armor tank, that's my style. I hide the links, and then sit a plex in a non-meta ship and wait for the meta tryhards to show up. I call it "fishing".

Waiting in a plex in a decloaked astero, killing the daredevil that comes in and his backup.........good times.

If a solo pilot comes in, and then no backup arrives I'M SHOCKED. It may not be a fair fight because of the links, but I'm usually in something they think they can take. If I had been in a worm or something, I probably wouldn't get as many customers because who on earth is going to go in on X badass ship that's already setup in the plex?

Over the years I've seen a lot of butthurt aimed in my direction. "you only won because of the links"

Yeah well I wouldn't have fought 3 thrashers in a vengeance without them. I wouldn't have fought a dramiel in a punisher. I wouldn't have fought 5 AFs in an astero. I wouldn't have fought a cynabal in a punisher.

I'd have warped out of the plex when I saw that coming my way and there would have been zero content for anybody. You can't fight outnumbered and outshipped like that in scram range......unless you have links. Solo against many, the only option would be kiting.

It's not fair that our gang couldn't kill the linked guy, boohoo. If this were a game where things like that weren't possible, where the only thing that matters is how many you brought and what they were in......it would be a much duller game.
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#264 - 2015-12-14 11:41:51 UTC
I will unsub all of my accounts when OGB are removed unless I find a new excuse for my losses that cannot be proven wrong.
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#265 - 2015-12-14 11:52:20 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Burtakus wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt


I'll take your challenge. I'm not putting a billion ISK on it. If you want to prove something you can take it or leave it.

Our relative skill at PvP has nothing to do with the fact that OGB is broken as all hell. It's the most egregious form of pay to win in the game and it's high time it was done away with.


I will pay the 1 bln for you if you lose. You can keep the prize if you win.
As its my ISK on the line, I will agree upon 3rd party with Burt.

Only thing I am asking is to be able to take part as a visitor. What say you?
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#266 - 2015-12-14 12:59:43 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
. Brawling is for chumps.



I have been trying to tell people this for 3-4 years.


LIES!!!, brawling is awesome!.

This is a dumb commentary that doesnt explain why its giving brawling a negative opinion.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#267 - 2015-12-14 14:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Because taking a brawl is like giving complete control to your target(s) in the hope that they dont just have another 20 people jump in the second scrams go on.

Theres a time and place for it, but results in a lot more reshipping.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#268 - 2015-12-14 15:33:16 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:


The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).



No worries. I will agree that some of the boosters I've killed have had plenty of opportunities to cloak/move/use a different fit. Some of them though the mistake boils down to not seeing the Tornadoes move or the single pass of the combat probes before they are toast, not much of a mistake imo, just bad luck and/or trying to do to much.

JUSTK is recruiting
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#269 - 2015-12-14 16:24:29 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Because taking a brawl is like giving complete control to your target(s) in the hope that they dont just have another 20 people jump in the second scrams go on.

Theres a time and place for it, but results in a lot more reshipping.


it has nothing to do with reshiping.

brawl combined with proper logistics cant be broken by range unless range has ewar but this can be also countered by anti ewar.

As everything in eve, this is situational, specialy for pvp.

if u consider complexes from Faction warfare, if a cruiser size fleet get into a medium complx and waits at entry point for a kite fleet, they will always win.... This scenario works also for gates in null (with/without bubbles).

so again, its situational.

kite and brawl are both good styles.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#270 - 2015-12-14 19:43:25 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:


The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).



No worries. I will agree that some of the boosters I've killed have had plenty of opportunities to cloak/move/use a different fit. Some of them though the mistake boils down to not seeing the Tornadoes move or the single pass of the combat probes before they are toast, not much of a mistake imo, just bad luck and/or trying to do to much.



Also, I've seen that the drop is crucially timed to probe and pounce as the engagement begins, when a pilots attention is at its most vulnerable to distraction. Do not completely reduce the difficulty it is to catch some links to dumb luck or lack of attention.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#271 - 2015-12-14 20:28:12 UTC
Ragged Starkiller wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Because taking a brawl is like giving complete control to your target(s) in the hope that they dont just have another 20 people jump in the second scrams go on.

Theres a time and place for it, but results in a lot more reshipping.


it has nothing to do with reshiping.

brawl combined with proper logistics cant be broken by range unless range has ewar but this can be also countered by anti ewar.

As everything in eve, this is situational, specialy for pvp.

if u consider complexes from Faction warfare, if a cruiser size fleet get into a medium complx and waits at entry point for a kite fleet, they will always win.... This scenario works also for gates in null (with/without bubbles).

so again, its situational.

kite and brawl are both good styles.


I have no problems brawling in fleets, with logistics. even less so. My comment was about solo/micro gank.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#272 - 2015-12-15 00:02:26 UTC
DELICIOUS TEARS.
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#273 - 2015-12-15 11:30:04 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
DELICIOUS TEARS.



We can't see them, can you please take off your googles?
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#274 - 2015-12-15 13:33:24 UTC
Fu Qjoo wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
DELICIOUS TEARS.



We can't see them, can you please take off your googles?


Post on your main.
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#275 - 2015-12-15 13:40:16 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Ragged Starkiller wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Because taking a brawl is like giving complete control to your target(s) in the hope that they dont just have another 20 people jump in the second scrams go on.

Theres a time and place for it, but results in a lot more reshipping.


it has nothing to do with reshiping.

brawl combined with proper logistics cant be broken by range unless range has ewar but this can be also countered by anti ewar.

As everything in eve, this is situational, specialy for pvp.

if u consider complexes from Faction warfare, if a cruiser size fleet get into a medium complx and waits at entry point for a kite fleet, they will always win.... This scenario works also for gates in null (with/without bubbles).

so again, its situational.

kite and brawl are both good styles.


I have no problems brawling in fleets, with logistics. even less so. My comment was about solo/micro gank.


hmmm, ok... I didnt got what you meant to say then... my bad.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2015-12-15 13:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Switch Savage
Quite happy links will be removed really. It makes solo vs fleet a bit harder in some heavy active tank brawl fits but I can and will adapt. Plus i am having a riot welping all my active tank fits that require links as Crosi saw first hand the other day (gf btw).

A lot of people seem to think it will magically balance things out and let them win more fights. Trust me on this one you will still very likely lose to all the same people.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#277 - 2015-12-15 14:00:05 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:


The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).



No worries. I will agree that some of the boosters I've killed have had plenty of opportunities to cloak/move/use a different fit. Some of them though the mistake boils down to not seeing the Tornadoes move or the single pass of the combat probes before they are toast, not much of a mistake imo, just bad luck and/or trying to do to much.


There is no denying your skill and your patience/preparation. You have clearly demonstrated what can be done. However, my point is to show that you are powerless if the links T3C is piloted properly (alright, yes you may force them to cloak, warp or jump and therefore force them to drop the links).

The trouble CCP has is that they have to account for the lowest common denominator; for every Templar Dane (or Crosi) trying to get fights against the odds by using links to level the field or give them an unforeseen advantage you get 5-10 pilots who abuse links in circumstances clearly overpowered.

Perhaps they did not need to be dragged on grid but, I guess CCP made a decision to push novices and smalls back towards the new guys (CD's and Tech II Logi blocked amirite?) and to make it clear links affecting ships in FW plex's obvious?

Cannot help wonder: If they had given the link modules a little reduction in effectiveness (and perhaps replaced the interdiction skirmish module), the T3C's link bonus's a reduction and added an aggression timer, they would have been a long way to finding a good balance.


I

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Arla Sarain
#278 - 2015-12-15 14:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Cannot help wonder: If they had given the link modules a little reduction in effectiveness (and perhaps replaced the interdiction skirmish module), the T3C's link bonus's a reduction and added an aggression timer, they would have been a long way to finding a good balance.


I

Would they be?

Extra tank is compensated with spending time applying more damage, maybe better piloting to mitigate incoming damage in this time window.

The extra speed and tackle range is hard to compensate for, you can't just spend more time burning towards the target. You either have to get double webs, or pick a very fast ship, which is notably either without tank or DPS or both, hence not competitive with the linked ship.

Skirmish links alone do one sinful thing - perpetrate the kiting cancer further. Fights already boil down to tackle range (determining who gets the privilege of disengaging on demand, as well as offering protection against MWD chasers), damage projection and damage mitigation.

Armor and Siege links reduce the error margin. Even with the added tank there are more variables in effect, such as mitigation through tracking, speed, and rubber banding drones.

Skirmish links just increase the encounter envelope ceiling. There are few things you can do bar bringing the obvious counter, either dedicated EWAR or simply more people. After this, it's as you say. For every Crosi Wesdo there are 10 dudes who will bring links to a Rifter fight, and will bail at the slightest sign of challenge.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2015-12-15 16:23:33 UTC
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#280 - 2015-12-15 18:02:02 UTC
Switch Savage wrote:
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).


That's the minimum scram range I believe.