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Why do off grid links exist?
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Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#241 - 2015-12-09 14:58:56 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#242 - 2015-12-09 15:07:51 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


I believe Thantos Marathon kind of proved that hunting links is actually not that hard.

See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=454826&p=3
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#243 - 2015-12-09 15:13:01 UTC
So you are saying killing all those boosters was easy!? Big smile

Estella Osoka wrote:


I believe Thantos Marathon kind of proved that hunting links is actually not that hard.

See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=454826&p=3

JUSTK is recruiting
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#244 - 2015-12-09 15:23:43 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
So you are saying killing all those boosters was easy!? Big smile

Estella Osoka wrote:


I believe Thantos Marathon kind of proved that hunting links is actually not that hard.

See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=454826&p=3



With good planning and lots of alpha. Sure.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#245 - 2015-12-10 01:40:38 UTC
Burtakus wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt


Will never happen.

Crosi Wesdo is one of the worst players in Eve and literally can't fight without links and a 4.2b pod.

If you're lucky, he might give you his stuff when OGB is removed.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2015-12-10 01:52:14 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
So you are saying killing all those boosters was easy!? Big smile

Estella Osoka wrote:


I believe Thantos Marathon kind of proved that hunting links is actually not that hard.

See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=454826&p=3



With good planning and lots of alpha. Sure.


As I said, requires more than one nado alt so you're looking at mismatched numbers already. Purely for purposes of countering links, the best solution is to bring your own. This represents a poor mechanic.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2015-12-10 01:57:18 UTC
Burtakus wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt


I'll take your challenge. I'm not putting a billion ISK on it. If you want to prove something you can take it or leave it.

Our relative skill at PvP has nothing to do with the fact that OGB is broken as all hell. It's the most egregious form of pay to win in the game and it's high time it was done away with.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#248 - 2015-12-10 02:12:40 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
So you are saying killing all those boosters was easy!? Big smile

Estella Osoka wrote:


I believe Thantos Marathon kind of proved that hunting links is actually not that hard.

See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=454826&p=3



With good planning and lots of alpha. Sure.


As I said, requires more than one nado alt so you're looking at mismatched numbers already. Purely for purposes of countering links, the best solution is to bring your own. This represents a poor mechanic.


Links dont counter links in many scenarios.

If spending 60 seconds of probing and hitting F1 once is too much effort for you, then i cant imagine you will ever be happy in eve.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#249 - 2015-12-10 02:32:23 UTC
Burtakus wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt



I am happy to be the trusted 3rd party to hold the 1Bil from each of you.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#250 - 2015-12-10 02:51:54 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.






So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.









https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#251 - 2015-12-10 11:35:12 UTC
Ah, but at least he knows you have two toons so he can blue ball you. Therefor more content?

I think thats the logic.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#252 - 2015-12-10 17:12:22 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.



So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.


and in a fleet of 251 your links have a apparent overpowered 750% investment.


It's not on grid or off grid that was the problems but we will have to see what CCP are doing with all the inbound changes to decide whether they are getting some balance.

As "on grid" means many many kilometres, probing will still be required. LOL at all the whine complaining about whine.

The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).


"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#253 - 2015-12-10 17:28:02 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.



So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.


and in a fleet of 251 your links have a apparent overpowered 750% investment.


It's not on grid or off grid that was the problems but we will have to see what CCP are doing with all the inbound changes to decide whether they are getting some balance.

As "on grid" means many many kilometres, probing will still be required. LOL at all the whine complaining about whine.

The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).




What was really sad is that if they had just parked a Command Ship on the undock, they would have gotten a better return. Command ships can do the same role and still have tank. Start taking a hit, dock up.

Links on grid will be cool. Especially since grid is now 8000km. Still gonna need those probers.

What is the distance from the plex acc gate to the beacon? about 10,000km?
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#254 - 2015-12-10 21:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.



So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.


and in a fleet of 251 your links have a apparent overpowered 750% investment.


It's not on grid or off grid that was the problems but we will have to see what CCP are doing with all the inbound changes to decide whether they are getting some balance.

As "on grid" means many many kilometres, probing will still be required. LOL at all the whine complaining about whine.

The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).





If you're in a Fleet of 251 - The other fleet has a fully skilled booster/leadership toon in it too.
There is no advantage at all at that scale.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2015-12-11 03:44:14 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.






So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.











The advantage links provide to kiting setups is far more valuable than just bringing +1 character on-grid which will require far more active input than a links alt.

Crosi brings links instead of a logi alt because the logi alt doesn't enable him to remain on-grid indefinitely against an enemy fleet. Nor would a Falcon alt or anything else. Links are the critical cornerstone of the presently supreme nano kite meta and their risk/reward considerations are vastly out of sync with any other conceivable alt roles.

Which is the crux of the matter. The nano kite elite pvp gods don't want to see their playstyle get nerfed, which is understandable. But the fact that this play style is more a function of paying a second sub than any combination of player skill and decision-making should raise red flags for any honest observer.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2015-12-11 03:46:23 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.



So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.


and in a fleet of 251 your links have a apparent overpowered 750% investment.


It's not on grid or off grid that was the problems but we will have to see what CCP are doing with all the inbound changes to decide whether they are getting some balance.

As "on grid" means many many kilometres, probing will still be required. LOL at all the whine complaining about whine.

The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).




What was really sad is that if they had just parked a Command Ship on the undock, they would have gotten a better return. Command ships can do the same role and still have tank. Start taking a hit, dock up.

Links on grid will be cool. Especially since grid is now 8000km. Still gonna need those probers.

What is the distance from the plex acc gate to the beacon? about 10,000km?



CC's don't have the risk free mobility though. Of they get caught on a gate by a fleet they're dead. It still takes *I believe* a minimum of three fully skilled nados to alpha a single LSE booster T3.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#257 - 2015-12-11 08:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The advantage links provide to kiting setups is far more valuable than just bringing +1 character on-grid which will require far more active input than a links alt.

Crosi brings links instead of a logi alt because the logi alt doesn't enable him to remain on-grid indefinitely against an enemy fleet. Nor would a Falcon alt or anything else. Links are the critical cornerstone of the presently supreme nano kite meta and their risk/reward considerations are vastly out of sync with any other conceivable alt roles.

Which is the crux of the matter. The nano kite elite pvp gods don't want to see their playstyle get nerfed, which is understandable. But the fact that this play style is more a function of paying a second sub than any combination of player skill and decision-making should raise red flags for any honest observer.


So because with links i can harass an ill prepared enemy fleet but at the same time be nothing more than a nuisance to an enemy fleet that has advisable counters in place, that means links are broken?

Seems like the anti link argument is evolving. Its starting point was 'links are god mode and break the game on every level' and ends up with 'i hate crosi and if i have to hear another story of him forcing brave newbies out of a plex im gonna puke'. lol.

Im sure one day someone will give you the credit you deserve demiriwhatever your name is.

Also, nano kite has always been the supreme meta, and will remain so. Brawling is for chumps. Strict counters to kite do exist more now than they ever have done with the long range weapon buffs but kite will always grant a superior GTFO capability. I know for a fact that those who complain about links now will be complaining about implants later (they already do) as their 'hard counters' and blob tactics still fall short.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#258 - 2015-12-11 15:32:09 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
"here have some 30% blanket stat boost cos you were so good at this game that you got an alt".


That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.



So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.


and in a fleet of 251 your links have a apparent overpowered 750% investment.


It's not on grid or off grid that was the problems but we will have to see what CCP are doing with all the inbound changes to decide whether they are getting some balance.

As "on grid" means many many kilometres, probing will still be required. LOL at all the whine complaining about whine.

The real balancing that is required will be missed, as usual. So T3C boosters in low sec will continue to only die from silly mistakes (sorry Thanatos but that is what I think).




What was really sad is that if they had just parked a Command Ship on the undock, they would have gotten a better return. Command ships can do the same role and still have tank. Start taking a hit, dock up.

Links on grid will be cool. Especially since grid is now 8000km. Still gonna need those probers.

What is the distance from the plex acc gate to the beacon? about 10,000km?



CC's don't have the risk free mobility though. Of they get caught on a gate by a fleet they're dead. It still takes *I believe* a minimum of three fully skilled nados to alpha a single LSE booster T3.


2 Nados is all that is required. Ever heard of MWD+cloak? Helps non-covert ops ships get around lowsec pretty well.
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#259 - 2015-12-11 18:13:26 UTC
I wish to share my point of view of command ships and links. I believe they are related!!!

Command ships SHOULD be more tanky. BS or faction BS tank like. very few dps. Mostly Ewar capabilities and LINKS. on grid.

They must be on grid to work. If command ships were really strong this would dis encourage alpha them or make them a least survive for 10 seconds, enough to make use of those links.

I believe that a rethinking of how command ships and links work is strongly related.

Cheers

PS: NERF off grid links!!!
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#260 - 2015-12-12 14:33:10 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
. Brawling is for chumps.



I have been trying to tell people this for 3-4 years.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney