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ME question about T2 and tukker array
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Erylis Aphelyon
Fedex Industries
#1 - 2015-11-06 19:37:59 UTC
O7 fellow space cookie hunters

my problem is the following : i recently started researching rigs BPO in order to make copies and inventions. But while making maths about economic value of the products in encountered a problem. Erm, 2

T2 rigs require 3 different 1 unit of tech 2 salvage. But does the material efficiency enter in the calculation when i produce mike 100 of them.

i know the game round up all the quantities necessary but if i have a tech 2 researched to ME = 10
if i produce 1 rig, it ask me 1 unit of each base component.
but if i produce 100 will it ask me either

-> 100 of each

-> 90 of each.


furthermore, i read about restriction to low sec of Tukker array. But in wikies i read LOWER than 0.4
is that really it, so 0.3->0.1 or it's a typo ?

thanks and fly safe
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-11-06 21:14:52 UTC
Couple problems with your question...

T2 rigs have no BPOs. The BPCs come from invention and you cannot get 100 runs from invention. Rigs have a base of 1 run and, I think, the best decryptor is something like +12 runs (and that one has an ME reduction). You also can't do ME research on a BPC, so you won't have a Tech 2 rig BPC with an ME of 10. The best is maybe 6, and that'll have 1 run only.

That said, material reductions from ME are done at the batch level, so if you build 100 items using a BP with an ME > 0, then the materials required will generally be less than 100*(materials required for 1). The exception is thing that only require 1 of an item, they'll still require one of the item for each run.
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#3 - 2015-11-06 22:34:49 UTC
I just wanted to add that the Thukker array is only for capital parts. So you can't use it for rigs. Not sure if that was your plan or if they were two completely separate answers, so figured I'd add it P

As for security question, in game it says "Restricted To Security Level Of At Most 0.4" so I take that as meaning it can be set up in a 0.4 system, but I've never personally used one to know for sure. I do however know that it can't be set up in null, so I believe it is 0.1-0.4 restriction.
voetius
Grundrisse
#4 - 2015-11-07 11:19:32 UTC

You can only change the number of runs, ME and TE using decryptors. I assume that your reference to 100 runs is because you are building 10 run copies in 10 slots to make 100 small T2 rigs per day per character.

The input BPC have no effect on the output in rig invention so there is no point in researching your rig BPOs unless you plan to build some T1 rigs as well. Also, there is no point in researching small rig bpo as they only require a few items to build and ME 10 which reduces the amount of materials by 10% (?) will have no effect if the T1 small rig only needs 3 - 4 units of salvage.

As a rule of thumb for T1 rig building you don't need ME but might want to put some TE on the BPO. For medium T1 rigs I just researched mine to 8/16 as it's quick and you get most of the benefit. For T1 large rigs it makes more sense to maybe go for 10/20 but even then some of the rigs (like energy weapons) can get by with 8/16 as the materials are so cheap.

For T2 small rigs I use Augmentations , no need for ME when you only need 1 unit of each salvage.

For T2 medium rigs I either use Augmentation if they are cheap to produce or Symmetry if it will save a unit of a high priced salvage item, but mostly I just use Augmentation.

For T2 large I tend to use Symmetry, but especially so if the rig has mostly expensive salvage items.

It's worth looking through all the decryptors and determining what effect they will have on output.

I don't consider myself to be an expert on the subject so if I have any of those details wrong, please let me know and I will correct the post.

HTH
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2015-11-07 12:34:09 UTC
Thukker arrays can only be used in lowsec.

They are intended to boost lowsec production after it was greatly nerfed by buffs to nulsec.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-11-07 18:33:05 UTC
voetius wrote:
Also, there is no point in researching small rig bpo as they only require a few items to build and ME 10 which reduces the amount of materials by 10% (?) will have no effect if the T1 small rig only needs 3 - 4 units of salvage.


That used to be true before Crius last year, but now material reduction are done on a batch level, not an individual item level. If building one T1 rig, ME won't reduce the 3 units needed, but if building 100 of those T1 rigs, it will reduce the 300 units needed
voetius
Grundrisse
#7 - 2015-11-07 21:54:13 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
voetius wrote:
Also, there is no point in researching small rig bpo as they only require a few items to build and ME 10 which reduces the amount of materials by 10% (?) will have no effect if the T1 small rig only needs 3 - 4 units of salvage.


That used to be true before Crius last year, but now material reduction are done on a batch level, not an individual item level. If building one T1 rig, ME won't reduce the 3 units needed, but if building 100 of those T1 rigs, it will reduce the 300 units needed


That's an interesting point and one thing I was a bit unsure about. E.g. when building some T2 modules I was getting some materials leftover.

However, I'm not sure that it applies to rigs as I have done e.g. 10 x 3 runs of large rigs that are using quite a bit of materials and they always use the exact amount (I buy the exact amount required as I don't like lots of scrappy bits lying around cluttering up the item hangar).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2015-11-08 04:05:33 UTC
Material Required = MAXIMUM( runs, CEILING( runs * base material * (1 - ME % level) * facilities and any other multipliers ))
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-11-08 04:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
ME is a bit confusing when making things that require few materials or when doing only a few runs. even more so when you combine both

First, for a whole job, ME never reduces the material need below 1 per run. That means all small T2 Rigs are essentially unaffected by ME modifications.

The second thing is that the ME bonus needs to reach a certain threshold in order to actually become effective. The bonus (again calculated from the material needs of the entire job and not per run) needs to reach at least 1.

This one is a bit less intuitive. Say you want to produce an $Item that requires 3 $Salvage. Your BPC has an ME modifier of 10. In order to benefit from that bonus, you need to make sure that BaseCost - ModifiedCost > 1

As a result, your Indu job for $Item must have at least 4 runs to be affected by the ME modifier.

A three run job would require 9 $Salvage. 10% x 9 = 0.9. That's not enough
A four run job would require 11 $Salvage. 10% x 12 = 1.2. That gets rounded down to 1.

This can lead to some unintuitive things when it comes to using decryptors. Low ME + High Runs can give you better results than High ME + Low runs.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2015-11-10 01:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
*deleted*
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-11-10 11:46:49 UTC
voetius wrote:
However, I'm not sure that it applies to rigs


It does

Quote:
e.g. 10 x 3 runs of large rigs


Too small a batch size to notice a difference. Try 10 or more runs, then you'll see an effect (assuming your large rig BPOs are researched)