Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It doesn't work both ways, because only one of the two sides of this argument is correct. And it's not Mike's side, that's for damn sure. The side that spends page after page justifying and excusing obvious violations of the EULA will never be in the right.

Oh, and people who get ganked absolutely do deserve it.

Oddly enough, I tend to agree with your "fixed" version, and I'm not a ganker

Being disagreed with does not frustrate me. Forums are for discussion, and they would generally be pretty short and dull if all we did was jump feet first on any suggestion from a carebear, make fun of him and send him on his way never to post again.

A few of those named can be ignored out of hand. Kaarous and Lan are pure troll without further point to existing. Teckos is about 90% troll, though when his knee-jerk instincts finally calm down he will engage in discussion. Hiasa and Pedro are married to the ganker paradigm, and are just unreasonable but I don't think they are trolling. Zimmer seems a decent sort, and honest disagreement is always welcome if it comes with well thought discussion.

I champion these causes partially because I agree with them, and partially because few others on the forums will. The same personality traits that make them PvE focused pilots make them unwilling to post mucn on forums at all, much less to sustain a conversation in the face of belligerent attacks like those leveled by Kaarous.

My insistence comes from just trying to have an actual discussion, and getting few responses to the arguments I make. Instead I get a lot of blurf about my combat history, because I don't use alts. I get lots of flack about how nothing should change, especially in a way that benefits the more peaceful pilots.

Too be clear, I will never advocate the removal of PvP from any area. Enforcing various rules, providing alternate counters including non-violent means to resolve conflicts, and supporting as many playstyles as possible are all on my agenda.

So I see the OP. I think he has a point, but a very poor and unbalanced solution. Instead of just kicking the dreck out of him, I explain why he is wrong, and suggest something more balanced that keeps the PvP intact, maybe even opens new avenues for it, but alleviates his , IMO, legitimate concern.

This.

Conversation has pretty much stalled at this point owing to Mike's refusal to do anything but repeat the same flawed mantra.

There's a hint there.

It would be nice Mike if you could argue without all these dishonest tactics. Here you are now using the argumentum ad hominem which instead of dealing with the arguments head on you attack the person You have repeatedly dodged the question of reasonableness for over stuffing one's freighter fitting cargo expanders and then blithely and blindly blundering into a system known for suicide ganking. Is that reasonable?

Now you are being less than truthful. The answer was far more than, "No."

It was, there is a method for avoiding this in game, so there is nothing to fix. If you are getting bumped you have made a number of mistakes, don't make those mistakes and the risk of getting bumped drops dramatically. People, like that incorrigible troll Kaarous, have basically provided a "How To Manual" to avoid not only bumping but the ganking that usually follows. For you to call him and pretty much all of your opponents trolls is just ridiculous, but that's okay because it only undermines your credibility.

There isn't a dishonest character in that post. I wasn't arguing on topic but answering a post concerning my character and motivation. Opinion was given on how authoritative some people were, and I provided my own opinion in turn.

No, that was actual conversation, and I enjoyed the post.

I don't find it relevant to the OP because the issue under discussion was about a way to deal with being bumped once it began.

To that end I don't even disagree with the many posts that discussed how to do so in a fleet situation, and my own suggestion does not change that in any way. While relevant to the OP and good advice all around, my own comments dealt with bumping itself, and the fact that I personally find bumping as a mechanic to be idiotic.... A point I made many times.

Those many posts dealt with simply maintaining the status quo as if nothing about the current situation was wrong at all- a point I do disagree with. Bumping itself is stupid and immersion breaking, and using it as a means of holding a ship for hostage or a gank *without it resulting in at least a criminal flag* is unintuitive and counter to high secs intended gameplay that restricts such actions through either penalties or specific well-stated conditions.

In answer to your question of is it reasonable that people do stupid things? Sure. It's a sandbox. Do whatever you want.
It's also reasonable that they be ganked, and the gankers make a profit off their stupidity. I never argued differently.

What I have argued is that the methods used should conform in a realistic and intuitive manner as regards the ruleset of the space they take place in. Bumping is neither realistic (insofar as can be applied to a game about fluidic space) nor intuitive given the rules of high sec.

But that is just the point Mike, pilots being bumped have already failed on several fronts.

1. No scout
2. No webber
3. Over filling their freighter
4. Possibly fitting cargo expanders
5. Possibly using auto-pilot.

But such pilots should have yet one more chance to get away? Why? Explain that.

[blather deleted]



Okay, so WTF is the problem? They were foolish and the price is getting ganked. If that is the cost...that is the cost, why try shield players form being imprudent? Can you answer than?



The methods do conform to the rules. Bumping has worked the way it works since...something like 2004. Why should 11 years of precedent suddenly be changed to benefit those who were, in short, were dumb?

This is where you fail. You say, "Oh it should be changed!!!" But you never say why. You never say why players should be shielded from foolish and dumb decisions. If I fit officer mods on my T1 frigate and get blapped by an opportunistic ganker why should I not be protected by CCP. Why shouldn't everyone be protected from their foolishness and incompetence by CCP?

If you do something dumb in this game it comes with a cost if you do it often enough. This has been the nature of the game for well over a decade, yet here you are saying that should be turned on it's head. That only foolish pilots who use auto-pilot should suffer bad outcomes, and those who are dump but are not using auto-pilot should be protected...why?