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[December] Module Tiericide - Neutralizers and Nosferatu

First post
Author
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#141 - 2015-11-13 11:00:47 UTC
Dear CCP Devs, may we have option of stacking Neuts/Reps/Smartbombs as we do with guns?

Reason: When I pilot dedicated neut ship (as we talk neuts in that topic) and I want to neut "that guy" I have to press up to 8 buttons for essentially, one action "neut X".

That is not a good UI.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#142 - 2015-11-14 10:25:00 UTC
I like the fact that you wake up every morning telling us how this will be the day to make us millions of ISK...but at the end of every day its always the same....ships broke again....
Pelle Wittewoa
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2015-11-15 16:23:32 UTC
Gud stuff! Wehn are smartbombs comming up?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#144 - 2015-11-16 19:45:34 UTC
neuts (assuming nos too) turn off automatically when you are completely out of range - thats great thanks for listening ccp.

http://i.imgur.com/PLP6nJy.png
this means we won't see neut icons for tristans neuting you from 60k.


i have no clue however how the "turnoff range" is calculated

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#145 - 2015-11-16 19:56:22 UTC
plus maybe consider swapping the unstable power fluctuator with he infectious thingie to better retain current market values. You swapped performance with a meta 4 module there.

http://i.imgur.com/1iGFRnN.png

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#146 - 2015-11-16 20:45:42 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
neuts (assuming nos too) turn off automatically when you are completely out of range - thats great thanks for listening ccp.

http://i.imgur.com/PLP6nJy.png

This is stupid, the whole point was having neuts and nos behave more like guns and other ewar.

The pilot should have the freedom to choose when to activate or deactivate their nos / neuts without needing CCP to implement a mechanic to nanny them. And I can think of many situations where it will be favourable to leave nos or neuts running when out of range so it is reducing the potential of options available in the sandbox.

It is a good point about the icon showing when they are out of range though, but perhaps it could be greyed out such as the case with other EWAR effects.

CaesarGREG2
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#147 - 2015-11-16 22:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CaesarGREG2
Module should deactivate automaticly beyond fallof, like is now
CaesarGREG2
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2015-11-16 22:39:37 UTC
in my opinon they should get greater fallof to compansate effectivness loss.

1.T1 modules have -50% optimal, u cant think like replacing them T2(-20%optimal) because they use more PowerGrid.
2.T1 modules have lowered Amaunt of neutralized. For example mediums 165GJ insted 180GJ.
3.Ships with bonuses like Curses, now when u add fallof have asame range like before on optimal, but less efective.
4.For example ECM's have greater fallof than optimal
, maybe neutralizers should have skill to increase Fallof like ECM's have.
5.Most important module should disable automaticly if beyond Fallof range like now beyond optimal. U shouldnt activate it when beyond range!!!!!!!!


thx
thats my opinion
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#149 - 2015-11-16 22:46:10 UTC
CaesarGREG2 wrote:
5.Most important module should disable automaticly if beyond Fallof range like now beyond optimal. U shouldnt activate it when beyond range!!!!!!!!

Your nos and nuet is still effective beyond falloff range though, so that would be a nerf if we cannot neut or nos beyond falloff. Also why would you not want to activate nos / neut beyond falloff and yet be happy to do the opposite with guns and other EWAR?
CaesarGREG2
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2015-11-16 22:52:07 UTC
PPl forget that T1 modules Have optimal 2/3 like before!!! Mediums had 12600 now have 8000m optimal.


Feodor Romanov wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
This changes is a nerf for neuts specialized ships. For example my Armageddon with t2 neut have optimal range 37,8 km. After the patch it will be 30km+12,5km. Neuts at falloff range will neut me more then my target! More then half of second faloff range will be useless even for the ships with neuts strength bonuses. All this falloff is usefull only when you have Cap Booster and your target has not.


30km op 15km falloff you mean


"Ships with existing bonuses to Neut/Nos Optimal Range will receive a 2nd half strength bonus to Falloff"
For Geddon it will be 5% for skill lvl, so 12,5 km falloff.

CaesarGREG2
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2015-11-16 22:54:41 UTC
they shouldnt be effective beyond falloff. CCP made it wrong.


Moac Tor wrote:
CaesarGREG2 wrote:
5.Most important module should disable automaticly if beyond Fallof range like now beyond optimal. U shouldnt activate it when beyond range!!!!!!!!

Your nos and nuet is still effective beyond falloff range though, so that would be a nerf if we cannot neut or nos beyond falloff. Also why would you not want to activate nos / neut beyond falloff and yet be happy to do the opposite with guns and other EWAR?

Madrax573
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-11-17 00:59:43 UTC
they are just bringing them inline with guns. You can open fire at any range if you can lock them.

IMO apart from the large variants this change is just a nerf to small and medium cap warfare.
Less effectiveness across the board. Is small/med cap warfare that OP it requires a nerf? Not IMO. Just another nail in the coffin of minnie ships that were somewhat useful with nos/neut fitted....
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#153 - 2015-11-17 04:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Moac Tor wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
neuts (assuming nos too) turn off automatically when you are completely out of range - thats great thanks for listening ccp.

http://i.imgur.com/PLP6nJy.png

This is stupid, the whole point was having neuts and nos behave more like guns and other ewar.

The pilot should have the freedom to choose when to activate or deactivate their nos / neuts without needing CCP to implement a mechanic to nanny them. And I can think of many situations where it will be favourable to leave nos or neuts running when out of range so it is reducing the potential of options available in the sandbox.

It is a good point about the icon showing when they are out of range though, but perhaps it could be greyed out such as the case with other EWAR effects.



i am not sure if that was the point of the module rebalance (the goals are not even mentioned in the OP). I assume it is more likely to make it less binary and add the incentive to come closer to your targets. Having mods not turning off makes piloting easier, a sentinel can set up the neuts once and kite around with less module micro management. "enable everything and see what happens" is also not the most exciting gameplay.

the ewar icons are very important in combat. They allow you to make choices what to engage. Having a neut icon on everything on grid is just as if there would be no icons at all. If those icons could communicate how much you are actually neuted from what, maybe it would be different, but i am not sure if eve's spreadsheet based UI could do that. The easiest fix to that is to make them turn off just like currently on TQ once they are ineffective.

not to mention that the neut effect is still binary. seeing the effect of tristans neuting you from 60k in space is what i would call "stupid", not that the neuts turn off. There are no hit/miss effects for neuts. Guns have them.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Zockhandra
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Dreadbomb.
#154 - 2015-11-17 13:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zockhandra
Just curious, is this going to effect neuting drones at all?
It just seems that if your changing the neutraliser modules (which im still not really fully sure as to the why, though i like the potential it brings battleships to neut out those annoying ceptors and slicers at 32km) It would be a good idea to fix some of the more....less useful utility drones.


I must say, im not fond of geddons (which are allready fantastically overpowered) being able to neut out sniper gangs of oracles, nados, and their logi (because geddons definately wont focus on long range logi with these changes).


As an alternative i suggest that you use signiture radius to help guide the neutralisers so that>

-Inside optimal range, the energy neutraliser can affect all ship sizes equally for the full amount
-HOWEVER, outside of optimal the neutralisers suffer from inaccuracy of falloff and due to the degrading stability of the energy stream, it becomes much harder to hit smaller ships with this stream which also causes the neutraliser to neut for less.

This Castrates the ability of the Super long range neuts against small ships allowing them to still have a place, whilst still having good effectiveness against ships their own size

Example:

Heavy Energy Neutraliser II, Scan res: 400, Optimal 24.00 KM Falloff 28.5km > Inside optimal the neuts hit for full, but outside the neut suffers from falloff, and IF the ship signiture radius is >= to the scan res, then the neut suffers no additional penalties, however if it is below, it suffers more. This also allows plays to be made against Perma MWD ships (since them having MWD on may leave them vulnerable), forcing people to learn how to pulse MWD's / neuts

As a final note, i believe that Neuts should remain on past their 0% effectiveness mark HOWEVER- i think they should have some kind of visual effect that shows that they arent performing too well. This helps train pilots into managing range and keeping an eye on modules.

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#155 - 2015-11-18 01:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
This isn't just a tiericide, it's a giant nerf to energy neutralizers for anyone that can't afford the new deadspace mods. Is there a reason for this? Some data to say that non-bonused ships with utility high slots were overpowered? Or is this just another CCP YOLO balance pass?

Small energy neuts were already very kitable. Now I'll just deliberately stay in their deep falloff range so that if my opponent is dumb enough to activate them he's essentially draining more of his own cap than he is mine. Neuts were indirectly nerfed when nos was made more effective against them by increasing their cycle time, this further nerf is entirely unnecessary.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2015-11-18 02:39:54 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Neuts were indirectly nerfed when nos was made more effective against them by increasing their cycle time, this further nerf is entirely unnecessary.


I know balancing is sort of a give and take thing. But I find it sadly hilarious that CCP's reasoning for this balance pass seems to be, "Well, we're going to take some range off of your neuts. But don't worry! To balance that, we're going to give you the opportunity to embarrassingly cap yourself out in the middle of combat!"
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#157 - 2015-11-19 04:21:13 UTC
Rather surprised this hasn't been discussed more.

This is the most interesting tiericide yet because it's not only moving into popular offensive weapons but because the tiericide project is being combined with actual changes to module functionality which I would think would be a no brainer but for whatever reason these two were previously done at different times.

I'll assume the lack of discussion is a good thing.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2015-11-19 19:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Whoops, nvm, made a mistake.
Perkutor Jakuard
Los violentos de Kenny
#159 - 2015-11-20 19:45:46 UTC
In my opinion this is a nerf for ships that doesn't have neut bonus.
If you neut at fallof you'll expend more cap that your oponent, so you can end without cap faster.
So you must fly under their optimal range.

I know I'm a Minmatar freak.

Minmatar frigs ships really needs the assistance of NOS and neuts to survive in 1vs1 and small gangs.
I you don't uses a Nos your cap will run out before your Armor Ancilliary ends the nanite, so you'll probably die.
Neuts has been an also standard for slashers and rifters, making able to dry active tank ships and kill them.

Slasher and rifters are already quite difficult to fly.
The flexibility that you need in these weak ships will be reduced as your range get reduced.

Many cruisers uses neuts to counter-attack frigates, with links and overheat you can be webbed at 16km where your medium neuts will be under 50% of effect.

Neuts/Nos was already fine.








aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#160 - 2015-11-20 20:28:49 UTC
Will this see the introduction of scrips to improve range in the future ?