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[December] Module Tiericide - Warp Disruption Field Generators

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Bezdar22
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#361 - 2015-12-10 04:39:30 UTC
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#362 - 2015-12-10 06:09:41 UTC
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved

Daemun of Khanid
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#363 - 2015-12-10 09:03:48 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved



I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#364 - 2015-12-10 16:57:37 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved



I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.


He doesnt YOLO around solo in a recon. He normally has 3-5 other guys with him when he's in his rook/curse.

Speaking of curses, now that neuts have falloff, whats curse optimal range on med neuts? Could a HIC operate scram in deep falloff of neuts with a cap injector? I know on the test server i was able to shrug off a heavy neut in my devoter.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#365 - 2015-12-10 17:15:51 UTC
The HIC's do somewhat infringe on the Lachesis's long range warp scrambling role, but the Lachesis is still a useful ship. One, it still has an unparalleled long range warp disruptor (especially with links and faction modules). Two, it does not appear on d-scan, so it is great for ambushes.

This second point is particularly relevant in small gang fights (less than twenty). This weekend, we had an enemy roaming gang reported with about ten Caracals, three Scimitars, and some Interceptors. Dashboard seemed accurate from the initial scouts' report. Then I got actual eyes on the gang and they had a Huginn, Lachesis, two Curses, two Rooks, and a Falcon. Quite a lot of powerful ships. Unfortunately, when we went out to fight them they executed a well-rehearsed logoffski.

Bottom line, I split my time between a Heavy Interdictor and a Combat Recon. I still feel that both have a valid role.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#366 - 2015-12-10 22:06:44 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved



I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.


He doesnt YOLO around solo in a recon. He normally has 3-5 other guys with him when he's in his rook/curse.

Speaking of curses, now that neuts have falloff, whats curse optimal range on med neuts? Could a HIC operate scram in deep falloff of neuts with a cap injector? I know on the test server i was able to shrug off a heavy neut in my devoter.

Your looking at 24km optimal for the new compacts neuts and 30km for the T2 neuts. So it is not a hard counter. A Lachesis or arazu with damps is probaby your best bet to shut them down.

The main point though is it is another skill-less ship much like the garmur and orthus.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#367 - 2015-12-11 01:46:30 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved



I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.


He doesnt YOLO around solo in a recon. He normally has 3-5 other guys with him when he's in his rook/curse.

Speaking of curses, now that neuts have falloff, whats curse optimal range on med neuts? Could a HIC operate scram in deep falloff of neuts with a cap injector? I know on the test server i was able to shrug off a heavy neut in my devoter.



My Curse with Faction Neutralizers now has 36+12 range. It had 44km range before. So, it is actually less capable than it was before the patch.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#368 - 2015-12-11 03:28:32 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

My Curse with Faction Neutralizers now has 36+12 range. It had 44km range before. So, it is actually less capable than it was before the patch.

Unless your target is at 45km, in which case it is more capable. You lost a little optimal, gained fall off ability instead. I'd call it a pretty neutral trade overall.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#369 - 2015-12-11 07:04:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

My Curse with Faction Neutralizers now has 36+12 range. It had 44km range before. So, it is actually less capable than it was before the patch.

Unless your target is at 45km, in which case it is more capable. You lost a little optimal, gained fall off ability instead. I'd call it a pretty neutral trade overall.


Not really. It was 100% effective at 44 before, now that'll be nearer about 60% effective. I'd be mad.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#370 - 2015-12-11 12:21:59 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

My Curse with Faction Neutralizers now has 36+12 range. It had 44km range before. So, it is actually less capable than it was before the patch.

Unless your target is at 45km, in which case it is more capable. You lost a little optimal, gained fall off ability instead. I'd call it a pretty neutral trade overall.


Not really. It was 100% effective at 44 before, now that'll be nearer about 60% effective. I'd be mad.


Yeah, but was 0% effective at 45 while being 50% now. And still somewhat useful beyond 45k, if not as good as it m8ght be in optimal.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#371 - 2015-12-11 16:48:50 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that


ECM, neuts (curse), damps. Problem solved



I'd have went for "cloak", but those work too.

What you're doing YOLOing about in an unsupported combat recon is beyond me.


He doesnt YOLO around solo in a recon. He normally has 3-5 other guys with him when he's in his rook/curse.

Speaking of curses, now that neuts have falloff, whats curse optimal range on med neuts? Could a HIC operate scram in deep falloff of neuts with a cap injector? I know on the test server i was able to shrug off a heavy neut in my devoter.

Your looking at 24km optimal for the new compacts neuts and 30km for the T2 neuts. So it is not a hard counter. A Lachesis or arazu with damps is probaby your best bet to shut them down.

The main point though is it is another skill-less ship much like the garmur and orthus.


So a HIC5 and graviton physics5 character will be pretty much immune to long range neuts, at least from a curse (unless its the rare heavy neut curse). Or if you fit a faction WDFG and get the 40-42km scram, then a curse will be in deep falloff.

So yea, neuts dont seem like a sure fire counter. They will help, but a HIC will still keep point on as long as its got a cap booster or 2 (Onyx). Damps/ECM are a bit more reliable.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Hargante
Doomheim
#372 - 2015-12-13 10:43:10 UTC
as a cover ops pilot the only thing we use to get away is MWD if this is no longer possible then i am done .
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#373 - 2015-12-14 10:36:57 UTC
Hargante wrote:
as a cover ops pilot the only thing we use to get away is MWD if this is no longer possible then i am done .



Perhaps you might want to fit a covert cloak......

HICs are many things now, but they will remain abysmal decloakers.
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#374 - 2015-12-16 11:36:55 UTC
I honestly dont know how i missed this.

My first experience of this new HIC was engaging a Devoter with our 4 man gang, while the devoter ran circles around us going 3.7kms with heat, with a 1.5k dps tank, decent buffer and a 40km scram. (using links) I could get a Broadsword to go even faster!! Not to mention i could easily set up a gang of plated Phobos/Devoters that have long range scrams and 500 dps each. Plus as the scram module is in the high slot i now have lots of spare mid slots on the phobos...

Who in the world thought giving a HIC a 40km scram was a good idea? The Adrestia was meant to be op with its long range scram and the HICs goes further....talk about stealing the long range scram role from the arazu and lachesis, which were powerful but also had weak tanks to make up for their ewar abilities. While the HIC has the scram and a huge tank...

Lets not forget that you allow HICs also now to overheat their scram to shorten the duration to 4 seconds...So i dont believe you can call it balanced because they cant get reps. How long does it take a logi pilot to see the broadcast, react, lock and apply their reps?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#375 - 2015-12-16 17:38:49 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
I honestly dont know how i missed this.

My first experience of this new HIC was engaging a Devoter with our 4 man gang, while the devoter ran circles around us going 3.7kms with heat, with a 1.5k dps tank, decent buffer and a 40km scram. (using links) I could get a Broadsword to go even faster!! Not to mention i could easily set up a gang of plated Phobos/Devoters that have long range scrams and 500 dps each. Plus as the scram module is in the high slot i now have lots of spare mid slots on the phobos...

Who in the world thought giving a HIC a 40km scram was a good idea? The Adrestia was meant to be op with its long range scram and the HICs goes further....talk about stealing the long range scram role from the arazu and lachesis, which were powerful but also had weak tanks to make up for their ewar abilities. While the HIC has the scram and a huge tank...

Lets not forget that you allow HICs also now to overheat their scram to shorten the duration to 4 seconds...So i dont believe you can call it balanced because they cant get reps. How long does it take a logi pilot to see the broadcast, react, lock and apply their reps?

If only this exact specific scenario had been mentioned countless times along with many other reasons as to why these HICs are completely broken by players in this thread.

If only we had made the suggestion that CCP needs to nerf the range or disable prop mods with this overpowered scram before they were released onto tranquillity.

(end of sarcasm)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#376 - 2015-12-16 19:19:32 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:
I honestly dont know how i missed this.

My first experience of this new HIC was engaging a Devoter with our 4 man gang, while the devoter ran circles around us going 3.7kms with heat, with a 1.5k dps tank, decent buffer and a 40km scram. (using links) I could get a Broadsword to go even faster!! Not to mention i could easily set up a gang of plated Phobos/Devoters that have long range scrams and 500 dps each. Plus as the scram module is in the high slot i now have lots of spare mid slots on the phobos...

Who in the world thought giving a HIC a 40km scram was a good idea? The Adrestia was meant to be op with its long range scram and the HICs goes further....talk about stealing the long range scram role from the arazu and lachesis, which were powerful but also had weak tanks to make up for their ewar abilities. While the HIC has the scram and a huge tank...

Lets not forget that you allow HICs also now to overheat their scram to shorten the duration to 4 seconds...So i dont believe you can call it balanced because they cant get reps. How long does it take a logi pilot to see the broadcast, react, lock and apply their reps?

If only this exact specific scenario had been mentioned countless times along with many other reasons as to why these HICs are completely broken by players in this thread.

If only we had made the suggestion that CCP needs to nerf the range or disable prop mods with this overpowered scram before they were released onto tranquillity.

(end of sarcasm)


it is amazing how many errors CCP make despite us pointing them out before the changes, but hey at least they are aware of the plan B option as they will inevitably have too use it

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#377 - 2015-12-17 14:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
I'm still loving my Heavy Interdictors and have not observed them to be particularly OP. I have caught and killed a few Orthrus I might not have caught and killed before, but they were mostly the stupid ones who apparently did not get the memo that it was a bad idea to fly towards at 3700 m/s while I was Onyx approaching them at 1900 m/s. By the time they realized they should be going the other way, I was on top of them eating their face.

I am waiting to see them abused in large numbers. Inevitably someone will realize that Onyx or Devoter fleet is a viable option, then CCP will nerf them. Or, eventually, some gate camp will employ a Phobos remote sensor boosting a Devoter (or a Vigil alt remote sensor boosting any Heavy Interdictor). Then they will catch Fozzie's anonymous kite character and suddenly Heavy Interdictors will be mysteriously rebalanced. It's okay though, I was flying them before Frostline and as long as they are no worse than that, I will be happy.

I would love to have more people in my Corp use the Onyx in the small gangs we usually fly, but sadly very few people have trained it up. Someone was trying to tell me that his Cerberus was a better ship to bring to a small gang fight. I laughed, but I felt the same way two months ago.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Altair Taurus
#378 - 2016-01-12 18:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Dear CCP!

I greatly appreciate your recent buff to heavy interdiction cruisers' tackling potential. I think that shutting down MWDs and MJDs by "infinipoint" WDFG was a very clever move in a right direction but I also suppose that's not enough. Unfortunately some cheaters fit oversized afterburners what greatly diminishes HIC's tackling potential and ruins your newly introduced meta-game tackling environment. Therefore I advice you to add one new feature - "infinipoint" WDFG also shuts down afterburners! I am sure this feature will be fully compatible with your recent tackling redesign decisions and it eliminates all remaining cheating opportunities.

Please consider my suggestion seriously!

Thanks!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2016-01-23 16:20:05 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
I think this is overall a good change for HICs.

The current meta of HICs runs like this:
hisec = gate camping instalock HICs (basically it's just marmites, etc)
lowsec = gate camping instalock HICs, infinipoint HICs for capturing supers with logon traps
nullsec = bubble HICs occasionally (but rarely), infinipoint HICs occasionally
wormhole = camping hisec holes in solo HICs, occasional ganking with bubbles, bubble interdiction in fleet fights

For hisec, the ability to turn off MWDs and MJDs will adversely empower the instalock HICs to capture the only ships capable of escaping them at the moment (MJD fit DST's). Overall, not too bad; the DST could have also been caught by a 3-point scram fit Keres or similar. So a few more people will lose DST's.

The ability to turn off MWD's at 25km isn't too OP considering the presence of Garmurs, Keres, and the new Navy maulus coming.

For lowsec, the ability for a HIC to fit a 25km scram is actually going to see utilisation possibilities increase quite a lot. HICs will become good for tackling kiters, especially considering they will be very tough to kill. I'd expect to see utilisation rates increase markedly.

For nullsec, too, the ability of HICs to deal with MWDing foes will broaden their appeal. Right now they are too slow to be effective long-point ships, and can't stop MJDs with their bubble. This restricts them, really, to gate camping interdiction, which is fine but a lot of foes still MWD and MJD away. Infinipoint scramming will at least allow dual-bubble fits to stop a gang and keep one of them on field. Unlike other long-scram tackle, the tank of HICs will become valuable, unlike a navy maulus or Garmur.

For wormholes, the HIC will become very useful for stopping rolling BS which can often MJD off a hole. The 25km scram is also going to be quite useful for frig hole HICs, especially the Onyx in C13's, which will be able to bubble up through a hole and then have an effective tackle option.

Five stars, would tiercide again!


THe Shutdown MWD with HIC script basically shuts down the whole concept of minmatar way of fight. I know ccp is tryign to destroy racial differences for years, but damm.. make all ships same for once then.

Using speed was the ONLY way to use pilot skil in this game, everythign else is FITTING skill/money and Social skill. PIloting skill was completely limited to speed ships. Now they are dead. Well not all.. true but the ones that are not dead are the.. wtf? the CALDARI ones? because they can fight outside HIC range. While minmatar tha was suppsoed to be the speedy race simply cannot ( do nto even try to tell me a vaga can be effective at 40 km)

That change is stupid because it is not a tune on the game it is a massive carpet bombing over innocent ships to hit a few offending ships. And the worse.. it does not kill the offendign ships.. the ONLY ships that are really kileld are the innocent ones. Also it removes even more the ONLY good thing battleships had on their sides.



Seriously< i usually try to be respectful to CCP employees, but this is among the most idiotic ideas ever attempted without even havign a clear view of the side effects.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#380 - 2016-01-26 23:20:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
I think this is overall a good change for HICs.

The current meta of HICs runs like this:
hisec = gate camping instalock HICs (basically it's just marmites, etc)
lowsec = gate camping instalock HICs, infinipoint HICs for capturing supers with logon traps
nullsec = bubble HICs occasionally (but rarely), infinipoint HICs occasionally
wormhole = camping hisec holes in solo HICs, occasional ganking with bubbles, bubble interdiction in fleet fights

For hisec, the ability to turn off MWDs and MJDs will adversely empower the instalock HICs to capture the only ships capable of escaping them at the moment (MJD fit DST's). Overall, not too bad; the DST could have also been caught by a 3-point scram fit Keres or similar. So a few more people will lose DST's.

The ability to turn off MWD's at 25km isn't too OP considering the presence of Garmurs, Keres, and the new Navy maulus coming.

For lowsec, the ability for a HIC to fit a 25km scram is actually going to see utilisation possibilities increase quite a lot. HICs will become good for tackling kiters, especially considering they will be very tough to kill. I'd expect to see utilisation rates increase markedly.

For nullsec, too, the ability of HICs to deal with MWDing foes will broaden their appeal. Right now they are too slow to be effective long-point ships, and can't stop MJDs with their bubble. This restricts them, really, to gate camping interdiction, which is fine but a lot of foes still MWD and MJD away. Infinipoint scramming will at least allow dual-bubble fits to stop a gang and keep one of them on field. Unlike other long-scram tackle, the tank of HICs will become valuable, unlike a navy maulus or Garmur.

For wormholes, the HIC will become very useful for stopping rolling BS which can often MJD off a hole. The 25km scram is also going to be quite useful for frig hole HICs, especially the Onyx in C13's, which will be able to bubble up through a hole and then have an effective tackle option.

Five stars, would tiercide again!


THe Shutdown MWD with HIC script basically shuts down the whole concept of minmatar way of fight. I know ccp is tryign to destroy racial differences for years, but damm.. make all ships same for once then.

Using speed was the ONLY way to use pilot skil in this game, everythign else is FITTING skill/money and Social skill. PIloting skill was completely limited to speed ships. Now they are dead. Well not all.. true but the ones that are not dead are the.. wtf? the CALDARI ones? because they can fight outside HIC range. While minmatar tha was suppsoed to be the speedy race simply cannot ( do nto even try to tell me a vaga can be effective at 40 km)

That change is stupid because it is not a tune on the game it is a massive carpet bombing over innocent ships to hit a few offending ships. And the worse.. it does not kill the offendign ships.. the ONLY ships that are really kileld are the innocent ones. Also it removes even more the ONLY good thing battleships had on their sides.



Seriously< i usually try to be respectful to CCP employees, but this is among the most idiotic ideas ever attempted without even havign a clear view of the side effects.


I agree to with what you said to an extent. Maybe your neck of the woods has more HIC's than mine, but i've been pleasantly surprised by the low number of HIC's roaming around. So this is not as big as an issue as anticipated. However, 6 months later, things might be very different. Few things i don't like about HIC scram is that a pimp fit, linked arazu/lach/keres cannot even get close to the scram range of the HIC. I find it a bit silly, that a HIC has more scram range than a ship dedicated to long scrams/points.

Now, what i'm expecting to hear is "But HIC's are the perfect counter for command destroyers! It makes sense with the new CD's".

No. A destroyer sized ship should never have been given the capability to jump itself AND ships around it. In what world do smaller ships have the capacity to launch not only themselves, but ships around them, but large ships can only jump themselves? It makes no damn sense. So once again, big ships take one in the chin for **** that small ships are screwing up.

I can't stress this enough, CCP please stop introducing small ships that do things larger ships can do and then introducing mechanics to counter small ships that completely remove larger ship gameplay. I didn't spend months training up BS and BC skills for all the races just so you can dumpster those because you wanted more small gimmicky bulls---.

Anyway, i'd be fine if HIC scrams only shut off MWD's, but not MJD's. Or at least not large ship MJD's. But thats just my opinion... Its not like BS or BC's are rampaging across new eden. Or people are out with pitchforks against drakes.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!