EVE General Discussion

High Sec space is more secure for new players.

I disagree that it is the only space worth playing in for a few reasons.
Those reasons cannot be the same for everyone, as others have different conditions to deal with which affects their game play conditions as well.

High Sec space is a good area to train new players in, however, it is not the only space to train new players in.
By new players, I do not include new pilots which are trained by years old players.
Additionally, new players also include pilots with many millions of SP legally traded from basaar who don't have much EVE Online experience yet.
(I know it's not spelled basaar, but the proper keystroke is not working on my keyboard, and the alternate on-screen display keyboard has the proper key under the broken screen area, so I can't fix it at this time. For some reason, the space key works now.)

Furthermore, those new pilots with many SP are skilled in SP, however, when flown by new and inexperienced players, they will be safer in High-sec during their training period.


I also don't expect players who have never been to low-sec, null-sec, or Wormhole space to behave like veterans even if they played in High-sec for years.
There are reasons why low-sec pays more than High-sec, and there are reasons why low-sec can cost more than High-sec as well.

Of course I have the rest of the details on which is what and by how much. Which is worth more or less, when, how, under which conditions.
Such condtitions include , flying in groups, and why new groups of new players can be more deadly or risky than 1 veteran pilot with 100 million SP pilot.

I will leave it at that for now, because I don't want this reply to get too complicated from the start, and the current system input processing level is garbage.

Nerf Highsec thread #148384721.

Highsec is not the problem. The "problem" of content stagnation is multifaceted, but part of it is the fact that generating an income outside of highsec is extremely difficult for casual players who don't want to join the local blob. The people who stay in highsec do so because their play style and the effort/attention they can devote to this game don't mesh well with life in the rest of New eden which is largely dominated by perpetually camped choke points and roving blobs killing everything they encounter.

You won't make the majority of them leave highsec and if you try they will just leave the game. CCP realizes this and acts accordingly. Stop whining about highsec and examine your own unwillingness to take a fight unless you can outship/outnumber and out-escalate your opponent. The risk aversion and preference for minimal risk ganks is the true threat to this game.

I'd like to see subscription numbers rise, and especially more people making it out to low and nullsec. But people (and especially in this, and every other thread about highsec) seem to forget something. The different sec levels in this game are VASTLY different beasts and need to be considered differently in order to come to real, effective answers.

Like, people keep saying we need to drive players out into nullsec. I agree, but to what limit? Nullsec can't support the same population density as highsec. There's only so many anoms out there, only so many rats to kill, and the mining is already done to death and any more will just crash markets.

Isk aside, nullsec can't support a lot of players because of politics. People complain about much of null being empty, well what happens when it starts getting crowded? You can't feel safe running anoms if there's ten people in the next system over. Or maybe you do, but only because you have nine blues helping guard your system? Well, if you have ten people, why not head next door and mess with their ten people? Great content, yes, but some sort of stability is needed for people to rat and anom farm. That means due to politics and human nature, stretches of empty systems have to exist between entities. "Good fences make good neighbors", and all that.

Too many people, it becomes a clustercluck, people won't have the opportunities they were looking for and leave back to other areas of space anyway, and large empty portions of space will continue to exist.

There are other political problems at play in null. My corp alt had the chance to join a corp that was part of a large null alliance. The procedure to apply though, was more complicated than my last auto loan. Sign up for this forum, submit this API, talk to this guy, background check, pee in a cup, download this chat program, etc etc. And honestly I would have, but the day to day life of null didn't seem to be appealing either (interviewed a few people in the alliance who, despite the description, very much for it). Gotta go through a huge list of people to blue, people to red, participate in # of ops per week, don't go here, must go there, sit in this system and be a canary, etc. If I just want to play EvE a bit more casually, chat with friends, do a little group play, or have drunken roams, it was almost impossible to do so. It's just not my playstyle. So by it's nature, nullsec can't appeal to everyone no matter what carrots or sticks you introduce.

Nullsec is ripe with isk and precious loot, but there's only so much you can introduce anyway because of the population problem. I'm told most people do sites alone or in a small group if it's available. So, how many people can support themselves isk-wise in any given system? One person is likely to get into a system and run all the sites themselves if they can; I really doubt they'll run two or three then radio into HQ "Hey send a newbie out here to finish up these sites, I have enough isk now". And that's even assuming they can find a system with good sites and no cloaky campers to hot drop them.

It boils down to the nature of people, and the nature of the game, have a strict upper limit to how many players can be supported in nullsec. I often hear an idea floated about giving SOV the option to install mission agents. That's fine, but then why not Zoidberg just jump clone to highsec and mission with less chance of interruption?

Lowsec faces similar problems, but to lesser extent. With nullsec entities that can barge through the backdoor at any time, and highsec entities that like to roam barging through the frontdoor, lowsec makes for a chaotic and unpredictable area. Rewards there will never be optimal because it seems to be the most dangerous area of space.

You can't do much to nerf highsec income without crippling the abilities of groups to save up isk to venture out into low and null in the first place. You don't want a situation where nullsec membership becomes mandatory for all players at some point, which as I pointed out many won't do because it doesn't jive with their life or playstyle, and they'll simply quit.

The allure of nullsec is and should be the ability to grab land and plant a flag. Income should be enough to keep you afloat and bring in a tidy profit (which I believe moon goo does), it shouldn't be the mountain of gold people want it to become. If you want more people in null, you have to reinforce to them what null is about (hint: it's not about money!) and give line members more to do so they don't get stir-crazy.

This subject comes about once a quarter....

Problem is NULL is ran by basically HIGH SEC coalitions. They might as well be another race like 4 we all are in the game.
They only fight for fun, isk, and to keep line members playing. Goons are a great example of this...as much as I hate them at least they have their stuff together on keeping people around.

CCP said during EVE Vegas only 15 percent of the EVE population actually PvP's... So, what is the rest of it doing?

Everything but! And NULL game mechanics eat up mass majority of CCP's time.

The risk vs. reward maybe better for some, but others just like high security where you only have to worry about ganks corps and the occasional war dec.

Lets not forget CCP is business, they are not going to do something to **** off a lot of its customers by making HS some "hello kitty adventure island" area. They don't force you to play EVE their way, it is after all a sand box for us to figure out how we want to play.

Let me follow this up with - why you shouldn't WANT to clone jump back to high sec.

Risk/reward - the risk-reward ratio should always skew slightly in the favor of risk...that means high sec reward should be minimal compared to the other options. The space should be greener farther out from the empires' influences.

With the new citadels you can have your own little space empire and yes someone can come and kick over your sand castle. This is however a social game. Playing it like a single player RPG/adventure/bob the builder game is terrible and the game mechanics should not encourage such unsocial play. It however does in some respect cater to solo play in high sec heavily. Casual play isn't to be discouraged but its value should be limited strictly in terms of monetary gain.

PLEX used to be 350M each. Massive inflation (some from null sec anoms) and a lot from HS incursions (imo) has inflated prices - since currency deflation isn't something that happens when you have 1 trade currency with nothing to hedge against. You could argue that it is currency deflation but your buying power for most durable goods hasn't changed very much. So inflation it is.

There is no population problem in null or low in terms of too many people. There are political issues but that can be dealt with politically. Simply writing it of as intractable is ignorant. You can feel plenty safe running anoms or scannable sites if you just keep an eye on local. So what if you have to warp off or dock up? Most roamers/harassers don't stick around. They get bored, though they might come back later. You just have to adjust your play style marginally from lazy to active.

Mining can be more competitive but you don't engage on pvp at that level so don't say that more can't be done.
Nullsec isn't crowded so that isn't an issue to worry about - again a false argument. If it gets too crowded market dynamics will lead peopel into W-space, into pockets of low sec...faction warfare or any number of other activities including the new drifter incursions in low sec that will be returning soon.

we have new ships coming out and new content. This isn't a static environment and honestly anyone arguing in favor of the status quo has a huge burden of proof on them to say why it should stay the same as it has always been. So far I see fear and ignorance on display.

Join a decent low sec FW group - not the NPC militia. Yes they demand API's and that you use voice comms and probably jabber for pings. It isn't a lot of effort for...anyone. They interview you because they don't want a dumbass or spy joining them and thieving corporate assets in case ONE DAY they choose to trust you with something.

be more open to other people and deal with organizational requirements the way you would anywhere. Just put yourself in their positions. This isn't WOW or Guildwars or Second Life. EVE is real and you ARE there.

* So by it's nature, nullsec can't appeal to everyone no matter what carrots or sticks you introduce. I didn't say it had to - red herring. I simply asked what would make you move out there.

I didn't address you specifically, but to broader conversations that frequently come up since it is intrinsically a part of this topic.

* The limit to which people choose to move into null is like a fluid dynamics function. That is we have pressures, viscosities, temperatures and densities. The main thing is risk/reward. You and others admit that the risk isn't worth the reward in the way you do your "fun calculus". And since you place so much emphasis on being "left alone" to do an activity - that is something to be weighted in figuring this out.

A good analogy. But some of your statements misconstrue what I said. The risk IS worth the reward, but there's a hard limit to the number of people that can benefit from said rewards, in terms of isk and primo loot (my point being that null can't be for everyone). Dramatically increase those rewards, and nullsec becomes the only place to make isk, major entities in nullsec maintain an iron grip on the entire playerbase because they have the power to dictate who sits in nullsec and who gets forced out. So no, you cannot have a system where nullsec becomes the central isk fountain of the game.

* You have no experience in low or null so what people tell you or what you hear is irrelevant. Some null systems can support dozens of people doing anoms and others only a few (based on true sec and sov upgrades). Some people make enough money where they NPC in capitals and even super capitals. That is...the risk is fairly low over time and some preparations like cyno jammers and rolling any wormhole that may spawn. Local is the most powerful intel tool in EVE.

As a paying player who could be convinced to play in nullsec, what I hear is completely relevant. As is the opinion of anyone who wants to or could be convinced to partake in null. Like political discourse, the only irrelevant person is the person who cannot be convinced to change their position. And you reinforce my point about limited number of people being supported in a system, and even as such, it's not every system that can do so. And with risk being fairly low over time, that is precisely the sort of benefit holding SOV should bring. My point was that null isn't broken, it's the player's perception of it that is broken. Every sentence in your point illustrates that wonderfully.

Nullsec can support more people. More subs and more people in null would be a great thing. But there's only so much null to go around before it breaks down, and there's plenty of other playstyles that are just as valid that take place in other areas of the map.

*Low sec (aside from FW) is fairly safe. There are very few gate camps and lots of K-space to K-space connections through WH's as shortcuts to move around. Level 5 missions are lucrative but FW is more attractive since it is less effort.

Fairly safe, but not as safe as nullsec, where you have better tools to keep unwanted people out of your systems, and better rewards. So lowsec is sub-optimal for eeking out a living. Definitely doable, but not optimal. I am not saying it is broken either, just illustrating that it is a different beast than null and highsec, and again, any "solution" to any perceived problem has to respect those differences and address them when making changes. Again, not addressing a specific point you may or may not have made, but saying that for the fact that discussions of this nature often go that route.

* Moon goo is largely corp/alliance income in most organizations though a fair few derive some personal gain.

Precisely as it should be. Management should reap the rewards for organizing their underlings.

* You can reduce (I didn't say cripple) high sec income and boost low/null income while increasing the risk. People went to null long before incursions existed and afforded quite a few things

I didn't mention incursions (is this what your primary beef is, then?), and people went to null...with the isk, ships, and modules they generated in highsec. To say that people went to null before doesn't follow that null should be the be-all end-all of isk. Nobody went to null in a noobship and pecked at asteriods until they rose up to lead the goons. You went there with skillbooks, ships, modules, ammo, and allies earned and forged in high and lowsec. Or you were given those resources by those who did the same. Nullsec revolves around highsec on the map, and not the other way around, remember that.

* Null sec is meant to be a mountain of gold and w-space the gold rush frontier - right now high sec is steady and infaltes prices enormously with virtually zero risk.

Nullsec is already safer and has better rewards to whomever heads out there. The only thing stopping them is their preferences on how they play. Nothing stops any player from heading out there to reap in the rewards. You yourself cite people "NPC'ing" in capitals and supers, so there must be great rewards out there for the prepared. The same prepared people, whom you also mention vastly limit the risk in the region by being prepared. So, good prep work minimizes your risk and justifies pulling supers to "NPC". What is the problem here again? You want to dramatically up rewards for something people are already comfortable risking 100 billion-isk ships to get? And yes I will end my sentence on a preposition if I feel like it.

There is plenty of risk in highsec, moreso if you take the initiative to head out there and do something about it. You can suicide gank mission ships, you can declare war on corps, but you can't come to the forums and ask that CCP honor your playstyle and your playstyle alone and force everyone to meet YOUR needs.

It would be good to have more PvP oriented ISK making opportunities (such as the blood raider anoms). You don't have the scrap the traditional PvE stuff though, you can have both.

I often do exploration and bring along another PvP character, you might be surprised how many die hard carebears will suddenly throw caution to the wind and try and hack a site when there is an obvious high risk of death if there is some shiny loot on the line. PvE stuff can be a great opportunity for creating content.

I think life is too convenient in HS. A lot of people say that "if people don't want to move out of HS, they won't" and that is fine but they shouldn't have the best of both worlds.

I would love to see the four factions space separated by low sec systems. This would make people think about the space they live in, take notice of faction warfare and separate the market hubs, which will have multiple outcomes.

I also don't think you should get access to high level isk earning activities in HS. This includes the best incursion sites and any new content like drifter stuff. There should also be higher takes for high sec activities.

This may all sound like the "stick" but i prefer to look at it as being able to get the "carrot" if you are brave enough to go looking.

That said, i don't think Null sec should be considered the end game and people shouldn't be pushed into dealing with Null sec BS.

The carrot is on the other side of choke points permacamped with instalocks and bubbles in space infested with bored bittervets packing scanner probes cloaky T3's and recons.

Alot of people just can't be asked to deal with that ****. The only way to do so is to join the local blob or use multiboxed scouts to mitigate your risk. They shouldn't be forced to just to fly a non-T1 ship.

I live in lowsec. We have month old players in battleships come wandering through at least once a week. And the occasional tourist site runner in a T3 or ishtar or gila. As soon as they're spotted we have minimum 10 guys running around with combat probes and recons and cloakies and faction tackle mods, we will camp them into a station and as soon as they warp to a gate there's gonna be an insta-svipul on the other side with heavy tackle 30 seconds behind with the rest of the blob. Gate guns are a minor nuisance. Non-highsec space is a nightmare of constant lossmails unless you are part of an organized group or you run a second account to play scout. Even then you spend half your time cloaked or docked hiding from russians that don't seem to sleep.

One of the biggest differences between Hi-sec and Null is the amount of organisatoin required to make things work. Unfortunately that level of organization meens that you just can't buff Null too much in terms of income. Let me expand on that.

I hang around what is probably one of the most profitable mission running hubs in the game. It can support hundreds upon hundreds of players. The vast majority of those players are doing it wrong*. A tiny fraction of those players are making more than 100mill/h and a large part of those that do are using more than one account. Then we're not even taking into account the daily ganking of multi billion isk bling fit marauders and CNRs. So yes, it's probably possible to make 300mill/h on a solo toon for as long as you want but doing anything else at the same time is probably not happening due to the attention requirements. No netflix or chill.

*from a purely isk/h, damn any other considerations, viewpoint.

Now look at Null. Yes the income possible per toon is far lower than Hi-Sec but with the level of organization and support in the larger alliances, most people are a lot closer to the potential max income and a lot safer than your average bling fit mission runner. On top of that it is a simple matter to just pile on more alts with little to no wastage. Basically you require more toons to reach say, 300mill/h but you can surpass it by just piling more alts or moving them to carriers. This is with the same amount of 'attention' you'd spend solo blitzing Lv4s and burners on a solo toon. Then you look at the larger corp level and a LOT of isk starts flowing into the game because of that organizational component. It's balanced out somewhat by a lot of that isk flowing to industrialists who sell ships that then go poof in PvP but that isk is now in game.

So if you increase Null rewards, at least in terms of raw isk, it will have a huge influence on the game.

However, with the cap changes and Dread high angle guns you might see an increase in possible rewards (along with an increase in risk). What's the max dps on a fighter Thanny currently?