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What is the best gun platform against Guristas?

Author
Altair Taurus
#1 - 2015-11-04 19:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Hi.

I have just finished quite long Rattlesnake's fielding process (skills training, optimal fit etc) as my premiere mission boat against Gurista rats. However I also have jump clone with good gunnery implants so I do not want to waste it. Anyway I do not know which gun platform I should choose (hybrids, projectiles, lasers). So far I trained no T2 large gunnery system and I do not want to train them all. Of course lasers are not optimal against Guristas so my choice is narrowed to projectiles and hybrids. Yet what is better (damage selection & application, effective range)? I know this choice may also depend on selected mission boat.
Captain Ron Sotken
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-11-04 19:32:06 UTC

Kinetic missles
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#3 - 2015-11-04 21:13:58 UTC
since you said guristas I'm tempted to say hybrids, but since you said missions I want to say projectiles.

running missions typically involves a lot of shooting other factions as well, so I wouldn't want to spec into something that is only good at shooting a few factions. Personally I did all the guns because guns are awesome.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4 - 2015-11-04 21:48:44 UTC
Guristas are tough as nails, so you will want to deal kinetic specific damage. You'll do fine with hybrids but a dedicated missile boat will outperform anything else against Guristas.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-11-04 21:51:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Guristas are tough as nails, so you will want to deal kinetic specific damage. You'll do fine with hybrids but a dedicated missile boat will outperform anything else against Guristas.


Gotta call BS on this. Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos says, "No."
Altair Taurus
#6 - 2015-11-04 22:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Maybe Marauders say "No!" but Marauders are out of the question in my situation. My jump clone can fly dedicated pirate battleship at best, so it seems two viable choices are Machariel or Vindicator or maybe some navy fation BS like Tempest Fleet Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Dominix Navy Issue or T1 BS like Tempest, Maelstrom, Megathron, Hyperion, Rokh.

I know projectiles offer selective damage but I opt for longer range guns and Howitzer Artillery is not great choice with very long reload times and often overkill alpha. On the other hand hybrid rails looks quite good on paper but overall damage and alpha are not so exciting and tracking speed is abysmal. Yet maybe some of those BS have some great weapon bonuses?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7 - 2015-11-04 22:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Estella Osoka wrote:
Gotta call BS on this. Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos says, "No."

Then look up the NPC damage tables for various Guristas ships. They're weakest to kinetic-specific damage (that's shields and armor). I can't even believe you would suggest an EM/thermal-based ship (Paladin) for Guristas, so I'll let your recommendation stand on its merits... And yes, sure - you can use hybrids or projectiles (which have a kinetic damage component) - but nothing is going to beat purely kinetic-specific damage, sorry (why do you think most Caldari ships get a kinetic damage bonus?)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-11-05 00:12:45 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
.... or T1 BS like Tempest, Maelstrom, Megathron, Hyperion, Rokh.




Probably not the Rokh as it's bonus is range not DPS. It's basically a range tank snipe boat.

Even with a MJD and jumping directly away from the rats Gurista will still hit with cruise meaning range tanking is not that viable.

Altair Taurus
#9 - 2015-11-05 00:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Yes, I analyzed this problem deeply not so long ago. All major pirate factions BS have the following average resistances:

Angels: 75% EM, 45% EX, 55% KIN, 65% TH
Guristas: 75% EM, 65% EX, 45% KIN, 55% TH
Serpentis: 65% EM, 75% EX, 45% KIN, 65% TH
Sanshas, Bloods, Rouge Drones: 45% EM, 75% EX, 65% KIN, 55% TH

Firing best dedicated ammo type brings the following results (per cent of overall ammo damage applied to target):

Projectile AC

Angels - 55% (Hail L)
Guristas - 46% (Plasma L)
Serpentis - 46% (Plasma L)
Sanshas, Bloods, Rogue Drones - 48% (EMP L)

Hybrid T1 ammo (all types):

Angels - 40%
Guristas - 50%
Serpentis - 50%
Sanshas, Bloods, Rogue Drones - 39%

Laser T1 crystals (Multifrequency L):

Angels - 29%
Guristas - 33%
Serpentis - 39%
Sanshas, Bloods, Rogue Drones - 50%
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#10 - 2015-11-05 00:43:45 UTC
Kinetic missiles for the win. Polarized torpedo Golem if you feel adventurous...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#11 - 2015-11-05 01:07:17 UTC
Considering what you've stated, sentry Domi with rails perhaps, if Marauders are not your thing. If you're familiar with flying a Rattler, then sentries should be within reason to train in your case, though the tank and your major weapon system's sibling would require more investment in training. It will sport better projection and application for sentries while also being a gun boat rather than a missile platform.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#12 - 2015-11-05 04:23:59 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Maybe Marauders say "No!" but Marauders are out of the question in my situation. My jump clone can fly dedicated pirate battleship at best, so it seems two viable choices are Machariel or Vindicator or maybe some navy fation BS like Tempest Fleet Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Dominix Navy Issue or T1 BS like Tempest, Maelstrom, Megathron, Hyperion, Rokh.

I know projectiles offer selective damage but I opt for longer range guns and Howitzer Artillery is not great choice with very long reload times and often overkill alpha. On the other hand hybrid rails looks quite good on paper but overall damage and alpha are not so exciting and tracking speed is abysmal. Yet maybe some of those BS have some great weapon bonuses?


if you don't group your guns then the 1400s on the mach don't do too much in overkill, that said dps is still pretty low.

personally I favor an AC mach and usually try to stick to brawl ranges where it can do a lot of dps. It wont touch polarized golem eft dps, may or may not beat it with in game applied dps, but I'll take the mach's flexibility over a torp golem any day.

rail vindicator can get some nice dps numbers, but fitting is very tight. Or you can shield tank it and go max gank. over all I never really liked flying it.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-11-05 04:42:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Gotta call BS on this. Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos says, "No."

Then look up the NPC damage tables for various Guristas ships. They're weakest to kinetic-specific damage (that's shields and armor). I can't even believe you would suggest an EM/thermal-based ship (Paladin) for Guristas, so I'll let your recommendation stand on its merits... And yes, sure - you can use hybrids or projectiles (which have a kinetic damage component) - but nothing is going to beat purely kinetic-specific damage, sorry (why do you think most Caldari ships get a kinetic damage bonus?)


I prefer the better insta-damage application of turrets over the gotta-wait-till-my-missiles-get-to-the-target damage application method. I also like how with proper flying and keeping transversal I don't have to worry about my main weapon system not hitting those pesky frigates, or providing pitiful DPS on them. Yeah, it's great to have that pure kinectic-specific damage; until a little bit of speed bleeds away that dps and your only hitting for 50%-75% damage.

But go ahead, keep telling me how great missiles are.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#14 - 2015-11-05 07:55:19 UTC
Missiles are good and in certain situations (Grista/serp anoms in null for example) Rattlesnake can do amazingly well.

For normal lv4 missions however nothing beats the Mach Bltizing. Don't worry though, all your missile support skills will be useful running burner missions, and in fact probably be making you more money than any battleship class weapon system.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#15 - 2015-11-05 15:39:12 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Guristas are tough as nails, so you will want to deal kinetic specific damage. You'll do fine with hybrids but a dedicated missile boat will outperform anything else against Guristas.


Gotta call BS on this. Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos says, "No."

Against Guristas?
For a blitz maybe but in an overall sense count me among those who say missiles all the way.
In many ways and for a non-blitz mission style you already fly the best Guristas mission ship. With bonus to thermal and kinetic missile damage and drones the Rattle is perhaps the best Guristas only mission ship.

Looking at the base numbers for the ammo only I would say that something with auto canon might be the best guns platform for guristas so maybe one of the Minmatar ships, or the Machariel.
Captain Ron Sotken
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-11-05 19:00:08 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Maybe Marauders say "No!" but Marauders are out of the question in my situation. My jump clone can fly dedicated pirate battleship at best, so it seems two viable choices are Machariel or Vindicator or maybe some navy fation BS like Tempest Fleet Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Dominix Navy Issue or T1 BS like Tempest, Maelstrom, Megathron, Hyperion, Rokh.

I know projectiles offer selective damage but I opt for longer range guns and Howitzer Artillery is not great choice with very long reload times and often overkill alpha. On the other hand hybrid rails looks quite good on paper but overall damage and alpha are not so exciting and tracking speed is abysmal. Yet maybe some of those BS have some great weapon bonuses?



If you are not willing to play the game the proper way with the proper ships then you should be banned for life by CCP.

There should be zero tolerance for crappy players who do not train the proper ships. Period, the end.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#17 - 2015-11-05 19:25:13 UTC
Hybrids will work better, and a navy mega does better in missions than vindicator, never tried the hyperion though so that may work.. DO NOT use a Rokh.
Projectiles will work, but you will; have less damage application and sabot is bad.
That said, laser do work pretty well against them also.
Altair Taurus
#18 - 2015-11-05 23:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
I think you misunderstood my intentions a bit. I already have good jump clone with set of dedicated +5% missile implants to fly well fitted and quite good trained Rattlesnake. I also think that this ship is the best choice overall against Gurista rats, maybe except some Marauders.

Yet I have also old spare jump clone with set of expensive +5% gunnery implants and I want to make it useful in some way. Of course I could move this jump clone elsewhere and use it with proper boat against other pirate factions but unfortunately I do not have access to level 4 agents outside Caldari space. I do not like to grind low level missions elsewhere for long time period to get that access. That's why I asked you about finding the best gun platform for this clone against Guristas. However if gun platforms are indeed significantly worse than missile/drone platforms against Gurista rats I can consider moving this jump clone to Minmatar or Amarr space (Serpentis looks too similar to Guristas) and grind level 4 missions access there.

Ron: Take it easy! Blink
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#19 - 2015-11-06 19:06:43 UTC
caldari space missions off the top of my head
2x blood raiders
3x sansha
1x angel
2x serpentis
3x mercs
3x drones
1x EoM
4-5x guristas

then there are a few mix up missions
worlds collide serp/guristas, although they are very similar I included this one under serpentis above.
dread pirate scarlet: pretty random on which enemies you end up facing
the one with drones and mercs, I forget the name.

So I very directly answered hybrids earlier as they are going to be the best turrets vs guristas. If you were going to be ratting in gurista space I would have said get a vindi and start blowing stuff up. However against the whole mission pool I'd go with projectiles. the question of what is best vs guristas doesn't really make sense to ask for missions. I'd also suggest blitzing, but that is probably a whole other thread.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Altair Taurus
#20 - 2015-11-06 20:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
I can help you! Here you are what missions I get except missions against other Empire factions and some stupid missions (Anomaly) I always reject:

1. Angel Extravaganza (Angels)
2. The Assault (Guristas)
3. Attack of The Drones (Rogue Drones)
4. Cargo Delivery (Serpentis)
5. Damsel in Distress (Mercenaries)
6. Downing the Slavers (Sansha)
7. Dread Pirate Scarlet (many pirate factions)
8. Duo of Death (Guristas)
9. Gone Berserk (EoM)
10. Guristas Extravaganza (Guristas)
11. Guristas Spies (Guristas)
12. Infiltrated Outpost (Rogue Drones)
13. Intercept the Saboteurs (Guristas)
14. Massive Attack (Sansha)
15. Pirate Invasion (Sansha)
16. Recon 1/2 (Guristas)
17. The Right Hand of Zazzmatazz (Mercenaries)
18. Rogue Drones Harassment (Rogue Drones)
19. Rogue Slave Traider 1/2 (Sansha)
20. Rogue Slave Traider 2/2 (Sansha)
21. The Score (Sansha)
22. Silence the Informant (Mercenaries & Rogue Drones)
23. Smuggler Interception (Blood Raiders)
24. Stop The Thief (Mercenaries)
25. Unauthorized Military Presence (Blood Raiders)
26. Vengeance (Guristas)
27. Wildcat Strike (Rogue Drones)
28. Worlds Collide (Guristas & Serpentis)



Guristas - 7
Serpentis - 1
Angels - 1
Sansha - 6
Blood Raiders - 2
Rogue Drones - 4
Mercenaries - 3
EoM - 1
multi-faction - 3

All in all quite large percentage of missions against EM/Thermal weak rats (Sanshas, Blood Raiders, Rogue Drones) - 12/28=43%.

However you have a point! Missions against Guristas constitute minority of entire mission pool in Caldari space - about one third!
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