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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
Desiderya
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#41 - 2015-11-04 17:14:13 UTC
The checkbox is really missing.
Also, mostly out of curiosity as this is really annoying: Why have you decided to move the Scan button, especially as everything else is mostly untouched from the placement? ;)

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2015-11-04 17:15:24 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
The new scanning map is not an improvement on the old map, but many steps backwards. I've been saying the same things about the new map for over a year but have seen little to no improvements. First and foremost, the new scanning interface is significantly less useful for combat scanning than the old map. All of the feedback I've seen for the new scanning map so far seems to be written by people who do not do combat scanning but who casually scan a few data/relic sites here and there, and sure, the new scanning interface is fine for that. But for any type of intensive scanning, no, the new scanning interface is a waste of resources and multiple steps backwards from the old scanning map. Some reasons include:

1) The old scanning interface gave different icons for different signatures on the map. Different types of structures had different icons on the solar system, making it very easy to tell what was a player ship, what was a research lab, what was a POS gun, and what was a drone. The new map completely loses that functionality and instead displays all signatures—from cosmic sigs to player ships to structures to drones—with green dots, making it much harder to quickly sort through a cluster of signatures. (The one thing here I do appreciate is that in long lists of signatures in a cluster the new solar system map gives you a sidebar for scrolling through the list—this should be implemented to the old map.) The old map also had a way of “Stacking” a cluster of signatures in such a way that it was easy to tell what was a cluster of a dozen signatures (e.g. ships or structures) versus what was a single entity. On the new map we just see green dots that communicate no useful information unless we hover over them one by one.

2) Lag. The new scanning map is significantly more laggy and less responsive than the old solar system map. This is a huge issue both for people who run EVE on older computers as well as for combat scanning where time counts for everything. The lag kicks in especially when you pan or move the camera around to see different angles, which is something you do very quickly when combat scanning and the new map doesn't seem to like fast movements.

3) The font on the scanning window is significantly harder for me to read than the old scanning window, especially when there are dozens of signatures. The white font on green background on the past window is easier to quickly read than the white font on black that

4) Lots of people have points this out, but the scanning and dscan windows lack the same transparency levels that other windows have in EVE. They are much darker and less transparent.

5) Moving the probes is now more difficult. I don't really know why, but it seems as if icons on the map get in the way of the probe movement arrows more than on the old map. This is also an issue of lag and responsiveness it seems.


Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.

5.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2015-11-04 17:16:42 UTC
5pitf1re wrote:
This has probably been reported before but the new windows don't seem to remember the last focused window choice.

That means, when I have both the DScan and scanning windows stacked into the same window and I activate or switch to the DScan window it will automatically switch to the scanning window when I jump through a gate.

This behavior is rather annoying since I have to get back to the DScan window every time.


This has actually been an issue for a really long time, but many seem to be noticing it more with these changes. I've been pressuring to get some developer traction on a fix.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2015-11-04 17:17:41 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Quote:
To answer your 2nd question - I maybe don't understand the use case of moving individual probes in a fixed formation. I can understand it back in the day when we had no formations at all and each probe had to be moved manually, but isn't the point of fixed formations to get away from moving individual probes within them? Not trying to be obtuse, just don't get the use case.


Try scanning a Superior Sleeper Cache in a Stratios - even with Sisters Core Probe Launcher/Probes and all of the scanning array midslot modules in. You will have to move individual probes in the pinpoint formation around in order to get to 100%. Basically moving the entire probe formation in/out, and then probably a few individual probes around to get from like 99.5% to 100%.

And I agree, that although I don't mind having the SHIFT/CTRL/ALT keys to make finding the probe adjustments easier, I want to be able to do it all with my mouse, since there's a lot of muscle memory to snapping around my view vertically/horizontally on the solar system map, and dragging and resizing probes. It seems less efficient to have to press SHIFT/CTRL/ALT to adjust the probes. Having the mouse wheel isn't bad, but you still have to hold ALT to use it which doubles your APM.


Thanks for the detailed use case. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow (with no dev hax!)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#45 - 2015-11-04 17:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
My scaling is 100% and there is line visible on the edges of the window, in fullscreen and in the fixed window mode. This is how it looks.

And I would like two new upgrades to the window, specifically the bars that can be minimized. This is the vizualization.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2015-11-04 17:18:48 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

To answer your 2nd question - I maybe don't understand the use case of moving individual probes in a fixed formation. I can understand it back in the day when we had no formations at all and each probe had to be moved manually, but isn't the point of fixed formations to get away from moving individual probes within them? Not trying to be obtuse, just don't get the use case.

No no, you got me wrong, just to make sure there is no need at any time to press a modifier key for the operation of the whole formation, i.e. moving it around the map (and grabbing in the first place), resizing the whole formation, switch formation (pinpoint -> custom -> pinpoint).


Right on. There certainly shouldn't be any hard requirement for using a second hand, but it may be more efficient to do so. We are aware of an issue with moving the "box" right now though - that'll get fixed.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2015-11-04 17:19:17 UTC
Zosius wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Zosius wrote:
Can you please return d-scan checkbox for active overview. It's very unproductive to select from drop down menu if i want to do a single scan with everything included


Yeah that got mentioned elsewhere. Defect is in :)


thanks. Would it also be possible to have signatures standout more? This dark theme takes a lot of focus to spot signature. especially smaller ships


If you mean in the map itself, yes we are going to make them more visible.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2015-11-04 17:19:47 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Not sure if this is known issue, but if you enable the new map and scanning interfaces, probes will work on the new map, but if you use F10 they are not usable on the classic map. I assume you'd have to disable the new feature and reload to get it working again?

This is what the probes look like on the classic map when this happens: http://i.imgur.com/mfx23YV.png

Logged EBR-53607.


That's actually by design. The features are not supposed to be used together. It's either all old or all new.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2015-11-04 17:20:45 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
The checkbox is really missing.
Also, mostly out of curiosity as this is really annoying: Why have you decided to move the Scan button, especially as everything else is mostly untouched from the placement? ;)


Checkbox as in "Active Overview Setting" D-scan checkbox?

I don't know the "why", but we tried to counteract any inconvenience by adding in the scanning hotkey for both windows.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#50 - 2015-11-04 17:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Tooltips are really bothersome while scanning. You can mitigate this to some degree by bumping up the tooltip delay, except for two things:

1. That's a global setting, and having to change it to accommodate scanning alone isn't necessarily desirable.

2. If you have a marker turned on in the system map, it seems to completely ignore that setting anyway, and instantly pops a tooltip if there is more than one marker-on item in the stack. There are some markers I do not want to turn off, e.g., stations, and gates, and these are commonly right on top of each other in astronomical distances, so if my probes are near them, I end up having to navigate around some entirely unwanted tooltip popup to manage my probes.

This issue exists in the old map, as well, but the tooltips in that map are smaller and far less obtrusive.

Edit: Ah, looks like the bracket list delay does remedy this a bit. But, again, see point 1. Global setting, not necessarily desirable.

It would be nice if the probe cube were effectively "always on top" from a command interface perspective. There's pretty much never a time when I have wanted to click on something within the bounds of my probe cube(s) instead of the cube itself. This is really irritating when the cube surface is highlighted, indicating a click should grab the cube surface, and instead you end up with whatever is underneath it. This seems to happen far more frequently in the new map than the old one.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2015-11-04 17:23:56 UTC
Thank you so much for listening to feedback, great changes.

I absolutely love the dscan change too!
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#52 - 2015-11-04 17:32:03 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
My scaling is 100% and there is line visible on the edges of the window, in fullscreen and in the fixed window mode. This is how it looks.

And I would like two new upgrades to the window, specifically the bars that can be minimized. This is the vizualization.


OK I see what you mean. This seems to only apply when the window is docked and you move the mouse outside of the client. I will discuss it with the programmer, no promises though. I'll also show your 2nd visualization. I think it's very elegant :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2015-11-04 17:33:16 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Tooltips are really bothersome while scanning. You can mitigate this to some degree by bumping up the tooltip delay, except for two things:

1. That's a global setting, and having to change it to accommodate scanning alone isn't necessarily desirable.

2. If you have a marker turned on in the system map, it seems to completely ignore that setting anyway, and instantly pops a tooltip if there is more than one marker-on item in the stack. There are some markers I do not want to turn off, e.g., stations, and gates, and these are commonly right on top of each other in astronomical distances, so if my probes are near them, I end up having to navigate around some entirely unwanted tooltip popup to manage my probes.

This issue exists in the old map, as well, but the tooltips in that map are smaller and far less obtrusive.

Edit: Ah, looks like the bracket list delay does remedy this a bit. But, again, see point 1. Global setting, not necessarily desirable.

It would be nice if the probe cube were effectively "always on top" from a command interface perspective. There's pretty much never a time when I have wanted to click on something within the bounds of my probe cube(s) instead of the cube itself.


2 - Interesting. I'll do some more work on that tomorrow. As I say though, layering is something we want to take a 2nd pass at anyway - the tooltip delay is just a mitigation technique I am suggesting for now.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Lei Volund
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-11-04 17:53:42 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


It would be nice if the probe cube were effectively "always on top" from a command interface perspective.



This ^^, a thousand times this, it would be easy to move the probes out of the way to get at something below them, but you cant move the celestials to get at the probes
5pitf1re
Black Omega Security
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#55 - 2015-11-04 17:58:08 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
5pitf1re wrote:
This has probably been reported before but the new windows don't seem to remember the last focused window choice.

That means, when I have both the DScan and scanning windows stacked into the same window and I activate or switch to the DScan window it will automatically switch to the scanning window when I jump through a gate.

This behavior is rather annoying since I have to get back to the DScan window every time.


This has actually been an issue for a really long time, but many seem to be noticing it more with these changes. I've been pressuring to get some developer traction on a fix.


Now that you mention it ...
Aaril
Interstellar Consulting Group
#56 - 2015-11-04 18:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaril
Edit: To be clear, this is storage across session changes.

While the interface for probing is being looked at, is there any chance of signature storage being added?

Even with "legacy code", there has to be some workaround. This seems like it could be through a signature database that kept track of the pilots who had scanned it, or the use of personal bookmarks in the background. I am just throwing things out there, but this really should be added. It makes no sense that signatures are forgotten.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#57 - 2015-11-04 18:01:35 UTC
Heading home for the evening. Will be checking out any more posts tomorrow morning! Fly safe, and keep that feedback coming :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#58 - 2015-11-04 18:03:11 UTC
Aaril wrote:
While the interface for probing is being looked at, is there any chance of signature storage being added?

Even with "legacy code", there has to be some workaround. This seems like it could be through a signature database that kept track of the pilots who had scanned it, or the use of personal bookmarks in the background. I am just throwing things out there, but this really should be added. It makes no sense that signatures are forgotten.


You're talking about what happens when you switch ships or leave systems, right? Sorry, totally out of scope for our team even if it is somehow technically possible.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#59 - 2015-11-04 18:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Cross posting from the other thread and hopefully trimmed things you already addressed in this thread.

1) When the dscan is locked to the camera view you can't center your view on anything else but your ship. That's very painful. Generally I will find a target at a cluster of stuff, warp closer to get a better angle, and do another scan. With the old map I could double click on my warpin and start lining up my next scan while travelling. Now I have to wait until my ship has accelerated/warped/decelerated before I can even start lining up my next scan. Those seconds really matter when you're hunting a moving target.

2) A bug I think - when I use a hotkey (default F9) to bring up the solar system map (in fullscreen mode) the focus becomes locked on the map and won't let me click any other windows (to manipulate dscan sliders, interact with overview, etc.) Instead I just end up rotating the map view. This did not happen when using the map icon in the scan window, just with the hotkey (which I rebound and did not try using the default F9).

3) Like many people I keep my dscan and probe scan tabs in the same window. After the update the default seems to be the probe scan tab and it switches to that every session change which is very annoying because dscan is much more important.

4) This isn't new but it always bugged me that the AU distance in the probe scan window never properly updated for anomalies/signatures while warping around the system.

Very glad to hear the dscan toggle and fullscreen HUD are being added! Big smile

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-11-04 18:08:30 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Tooltips are really bothersome while scanning. You can mitigate this to some degree by bumping up the tooltip delay, except for two things:

1. That's a global setting, and having to change it to accommodate scanning alone isn't necessarily desirable.

2. If you have a marker turned on in the system map, it seems to completely ignore that setting anyway, and instantly pops a tooltip if there is more than one marker-on item in the stack. There are some markers I do not want to turn off, e.g., stations, and gates, and these are commonly right on top of each other in astronomical distances, so if my probes are near them, I end up having to navigate around some entirely unwanted tooltip popup to manage my probes.

This issue exists in the old map, as well, but the tooltips in that map are smaller and far less obtrusive.

Edit: Ah, looks like the bracket list delay does remedy this a bit. But, again, see point 1. Global setting, not necessarily desirable.

It would be nice if the probe cube were effectively "always on top" from a command interface perspective. There's pretty much never a time when I have wanted to click on something within the bounds of my probe cube(s) instead of the cube itself.


2 - Interesting. I'll do some more work on that tomorrow. As I say though, layering is something we want to take a 2nd pass at anyway - the tooltip delay is just a mitigation technique I am suggesting for now.


Please do. I raised this problem while it was still in testing and it seems You guys got little to focused on giving us options of filtering out things from map instead of fixing the problem that was non-existant in the old map