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Jump Fatigue Reductions were Not Enough
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2015-11-05 14:53:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:

There could be other things done to help blops mobility, but I think tweaking the fatigue/range is the place to start. I mean to be perfectly fair - CCP basically overlooked them even existing in the initial pass, which is fairly telling that they've been hit "because jump drive" and not because they presented a manifest problem.

A straight range increase will alleviate some issues with mid points, but of course the further you jump, then the bigger the fatigue hit - so perhaps balanced, perhaps just trading one pain for another.

A straight fatigue reduction increases range over time and reduces downtime between jumps.

It's probably fair to say that most people are not wholly adverse to blops getting some help. That said, we need to ascertain what problem actually existed which fatigue was brought in to resolve.

And before anyone blusters about "power projection" and the blob I should like to request some evidence up front before I entertain the notion. Find me some kill reports of these several hundred man BLOPS fleets YOLOing up and down the galaxy to third party a fight and farm kills. I mean if that was really happening, that won't be hard to find, right? They'll be everywhere.

With that said if we can agree on the problem (or potentially, the lack thereof) then we can work towards a solution which helps blops and still stops us falling into the problem zone again.


It's hard to prove that BLOPS would not be used to drop everywhere if they didn't have fatigue since people proved they would do it with caps before. While BLOPS don't have the sustainability of caps in a fight, they would still be the only option to reliably 3rd party any fights if they were the only ship with a jump drive to not have fatigue. The fact that people didn't do it before amount to nothing when it was possible with a much better option to do so.

afkalt wrote:

Here is my citation for BLOPs not being a problem, for those saying they were - where's your evidence to the contrary?

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops are working in a generally OK manner on TQ right now, and we want to minimize harm to their use with these changes.


Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5102742#post5102742


How many drops/hours were blops actaully doing before fatigue was implemented? Was this mode of operation slowed down or is it just the "getting into a staging area to do drops" portion that is much harder because it involve consecutive jumps thus stacking fatigue fast?


Hard to prove indeed, although I'm not suggesting all fatigue is removed from them. I think small iterations are the way here.

I agree that first part (blops, blops everywhere!) is a possible concern. My belief is it wont happen because the real lack of logi coupled with high cost hulls really hobbles that idea (people WILL take heavy losses third partying things).

But that's just my opinion and the beauty of these mystical numbers we can tweak is that if I'm wrong and that happens, then we can simply dial them back in. Provided any initial and subsequent tweaks were small and iterative, then any damage should be both minimal and easy to correct.

The latter part, I've no idea, CCP/CSM would have to help there.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2015-11-05 14:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:

There could be other things done to help blops mobility, but I think tweaking the fatigue/range is the place to start. I mean to be perfectly fair - CCP basically overlooked them even existing in the initial pass, which is fairly telling that they've been hit "because jump drive" and not because they presented a manifest problem.

A straight range increase will alleviate some issues with mid points, but of course the further you jump, then the bigger the fatigue hit - so perhaps balanced, perhaps just trading one pain for another.

A straight fatigue reduction increases range over time and reduces downtime between jumps.

It's probably fair to say that most people are not wholly adverse to blops getting some help. That said, we need to ascertain what problem actually existed which fatigue was brought in to resolve.

And before anyone blusters about "power projection" and the blob I should like to request some evidence up front before I entertain the notion. Find me some kill reports of these several hundred man BLOPS fleets YOLOing up and down the galaxy to third party a fight and farm kills. I mean if that was really happening, that won't be hard to find, right? They'll be everywhere.

With that said if we can agree on the problem (or potentially, the lack thereof) then we can work towards a solution which helps blops and still stops us falling into the problem zone again.


It's hard to prove that BLOPS would not be used to drop everywhere if they didn't have fatigue since people proved they would do it with caps before. While BLOPS don't have the sustainability of caps in a fight, they would still be the only option to reliably 3rd party any fights if they were the only ship with a jump drive to not have fatigue. The fact that people didn't do it before amount to nothing when it was possible with a much better option to do so.

afkalt wrote:

Here is my citation for BLOPs not being a problem, for those saying they were - where's your evidence to the contrary?

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops are working in a generally OK manner on TQ right now, and we want to minimize harm to their use with these changes.


Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5102742#post5102742


How many drops/hours were blops actaully doing before fatigue was implemented? Was this mode of operation slowed down or is it just the "getting into a staging area to do drops" portion that is much harder because it involve consecutive jumps thus stacking fatigue fast?


Your self indulgence pleases me. Tell me more about how we can make eve better for you. I'm sure you have more ideas.


Fatigue works 'as is'. Just like everything else in eve, there should be a few zealots raging against any good mechanic. The whining of the 4 dudes in this thread pretty much IS the proof that fatigue (BLOPS included) is working correctly.


The arguement is "I can't teleport all day long because of fatigue. I am special (BLOPS). Eve should treat me special" This is a win for CCP and fatigue. Thanks all for the confirmation!



So you've not actually got anything to refute the statement they were not a problem except schadenfreude.

Come back with you have some proof or something meaningful beyond "LOL SUCKS TO BE YOU"


If you search my history you'll find I was and still am a great advocate of fatigue, but I'm honest enough to acknowledge that blops are being sidelined these days as a result and perhaps they need revisiting to one degree or another.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#103 - 2015-11-05 14:59:47 UTC
If they didn't have fatigue I would immediately use them as teleporting taxis to where ever I wanted to go. Light years/jump would far out perform interceptors racing across eve.

This whole thread is a series of game ruining requests.

1. No fatigue for BLOPS
2. More NPC stations so there are no remote regions of space (wait what???)

and so on. It's pretty much evolved from a fatigue whine thread into a stealth bad idea thread. Isn't there a moderator with a canned "this thread has run its course" quote on standby? Can we cov cyno him in on to of this thread?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2015-11-05 15:05:52 UTC
And at absolutely no point have I suggested removing fatigue.

Some of us are having a grown up conversation, come back when you're ready to a) read the posts properly, b) participate like a grown up instead of "LOLYOU" and c) bring some metrics/support along to back up your point of view.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2015-11-05 15:21:38 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And at absolutely no point have I suggested removing fatigue.

Some of us are having a grown up conversation, come back when you're ready to a) read the posts properly, b) participate like a grown up instead of "LOLYOU" and c) bring some metrics/support along to back up your point of view.


Someone brought the idea of 5 minute cap if you blop jump from a null timer. Sadly, we have to take app proposal into account and that for travel purpose is kind of close to no fatigue at all since part of the 5 minutes would have to be used to cap up to jump level.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-11-05 15:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And at absolutely no point have I suggested removing fatigue.

Some of us are having a grown up conversation, come back when you're ready to a) read the posts properly, b) participate like a grown up instead of "LOLYOU" and c) bring some metrics/support along to back up your point of view.


Someone brought the idea of 5 minute cap if you blop jump from a null timer. Sadly, we have to take app proposal into account and that for travel purpose is kind of close to no fatigue at all since part of the 5 minutes would have to be used to cap up to jump level.



People say a lot of crazy stuff, doesn't mean we need to take it forward Smile

I'm sticking with my view that some stuff could stand to be tuned. I've not really seen any compelling evidence that incremental small changes to help the class is suddenly going to present Armageddon as we know it. Really has to be that way because of how connected range, fatigue and scaling thereof works.

I'm fairly open to what those are, but I think transparent and simple is the way to go.

I do think there have been some adverse unintended (per CCPs statement) side effects to blops as a result of the changes to reign in capitals so at the very very least the discussion should be had and metrics analysed. Actually iirc blops kills rose post phoebe, but I can't remember those discussions so this may all be moot. But we won't know without having the conversation. The trouble is that it's actually very hard to get a proper discussion going around this because barring a few people like yourself, the torches and pitchforks come out pronto.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#107 - 2015-11-05 15:59:25 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
I screwed up by not paying attention to relevant game mechanics, and now feel the need to cry about it publicly. CCP plz pay attention to my entitled whining.


Yeah. No.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2015-11-05 16:13:30 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And at absolutely no point have I suggested removing fatigue.

Some of us are having a grown up conversation, come back when you're ready to a) read the posts properly, b) participate like a grown up instead of "LOLYOU" and c) bring some metrics/support along to back up your point of view.


Someone brought the idea of 5 minute cap if you blop jump from a null timer. Sadly, we have to take app proposal into account and that for travel purpose is kind of close to no fatigue at all since part of the 5 minutes would have to be used to cap up to jump level.



People say a lot of crazy stuff, doesn't mean we need to take it forward Smile

I'm sticking with my view that some stuff could stand to be tuned. I've not really seen any compelling evidence that incremental small changes to help the class is suddenly going to present Armageddon as we know it. Really has to be that way because of how connected range, fatigue and scaling thereof works.

I'm fairly open to what those are, but I think transparent and simple is the way to go.

I do think there have been some adverse unintended (per CCPs statement) side effects to blops as a result of the changes to reign in capitals so at the very very least the discussion should be had and metrics analysed. Actually iirc blops kills rose post phoebe, but I can't remember those discussions so this may all be moot. But we won't know without having the conversation. The trouble is that it's actually very hard to get a proper discussion going around this because barring a few people like yourself, the torches and pitchforks come out pronto.


The stuff we really need is CCP's actual opinion on the matter like how remote are drone region supposed to really be for example. Right now, we could come up with a wonderful but useless compromise for example because maybe CCP think they are mobile enough right now and the remoteness of some region is allright and some region having defense in the form of geography might be OK too. Hell they might think having a region hard to BLOP on is worthwhile and make that space worth more than other regions where you can more easily be dropped on.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2015-11-05 16:22:37 UTC
Yeah, unfortunately they have consistently said they are happy with the geography.

Maybe they are happy, who knows. I do know that any talk of fatigue in general is dominated by caps though. Maybe they need a blops focus group too and some data shared there.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#110 - 2015-11-05 16:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
BLOPS would end up being teleportation taxis.

It's not like a billion isk is a lot, AND it's not like they ouldd be at risk being bridged around. The train barrier would be any racial BS to V and BLOPS to 1 and you get a low fatigue taxi. The folks bridge to their stash of caps would have all the requisite jump skills anyway, so I'd go as far as saying there wouldn't even be a training barrier.


You can say BLOPS are seperate from force projection right up until fatigue is reduced to where the teleportation taxi comes into effect. I don't know what that break point is for the various groups that would be interested in it. I do know that we're not there yet, that BLOPS pilots AREN'T quitting, BLOPS pilots are having fun, and it seems to be working fine.

No adjustment needed.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2015-11-05 17:05:38 UTC
My stance is that this is still a game. Fatigue effectively murdered much of the nomadic lifestyle, and really created problems for 'move ops.' Being a low/null mercenary group became a nigh impossible occupation to hold, given the 3 days before and after a contract one would have to spend moving stuff from place to place, assuming they were able to be online for 'move ops.' Insert all the move op arguments you would like, but it's still a game. Life happens, people can't just be logged in 24/7 to jump a ship every hour on the hour. Fatigue did do its job in reducing the 'one supercapital blob moving across the entire cluster to fight the other supercapital blob'.... but the cost for doing so was too high to much of the rest of the game. I don't presume to know the best way to fix it so it still does its job while allowing the game to still be a game, but Fatigue as it is is still pretty severe.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#112 - 2015-11-05 18:07:02 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If they didn't have fatigue I would immediately use them as teleporting taxis to where ever I wanted to go. Light years/jump would far out perform interceptors racing across eve.

This whole thread is a series of game ruining requests.

1. No fatigue for BLOPS
2. More NPC stations so there are no remote regions of space (wait what???)

and so on. It's pretty much evolved from a fatigue whine thread into a stealth bad idea thread. Isn't there a moderator with a canned "this thread has run its course" quote on standby? Can we cov cyno him in on to of this thread?



Er... fatigue is relatively new. Was anyone really using BLOPS as teleporting taxis pre-fatigue?

I don't recall that being the case. That's something I've done in a few very specific circumstances, but it was certainly not an every-day thing. You obviously couldn't go "where ever [you] wanted to go" faster than an interceptor unless you happened to have access to a galaxy-spanning network of cynos.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-11-05 18:28:56 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If they didn't have fatigue I would immediately use them as teleporting taxis to where ever I wanted to go. Light years/jump would far out perform interceptors racing across eve.

This whole thread is a series of game ruining requests.

1. No fatigue for BLOPS
2. More NPC stations so there are no remote regions of space (wait what???)

and so on. It's pretty much evolved from a fatigue whine thread into a stealth bad idea thread. Isn't there a moderator with a canned "this thread has run its course" quote on standby? Can we cov cyno him in on to of this thread?



Er... fatigue is relatively new. Was anyone really using BLOPS as teleporting taxis pre-fatigue?

I don't recall that being the case. That's something I've done in a few very specific circumstances, but it was certainly not an every-day thing. You obviously couldn't go "where ever [you] wanted to go" faster than an interceptor unless you happened to have access to a galaxy-spanning network of cynos.


They didn't use BLOPS as teleporting taxi because carrier were available and brought an non negligible amount of other stuff on top of themselves. BLOPS getting no fatigue or something really close to it would not only be an option to taxi-teleport added to the game but the only one and thus, the most efficient. We can't predict if they will really be used as such or not because we have no history to look at except one thing, the EVE player base will push any possibility to it's very limit to get any type of advantage.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2015-11-05 18:30:52 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
My stance is that this is still a game. Fatigue effectively murdered much of the nomadic lifestyle, and really created problems for 'move ops.' Being a low/null mercenary group became a nigh impossible occupation to hold, given the 3 days before and after a contract one would have to spend moving stuff from place to place, assuming they were able to be online for 'move ops.' Insert all the move op arguments you would like, but it's still a game. Life happens, people can't just be logged in 24/7 to jump a ship every hour on the hour. Fatigue did do its job in reducing the 'one supercapital blob moving across the entire cluster to fight the other supercapital blob'.... but the cost for doing so was too high to much of the rest of the game. I don't presume to know the best way to fix it so it still does its job while allowing the game to still be a game, but Fatigue as it is is still pretty severe.


The size of the universe is supposed to matter. People being used to nomadic life where crossing the universe in less than an hours does not mean it was good gameplay that needs to come back.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2015-11-05 19:03:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If they didn't have fatigue I would immediately use them as teleporting taxis to where ever I wanted to go. Light years/jump would far out perform interceptors racing across eve.

This whole thread is a series of game ruining requests.

1. No fatigue for BLOPS
2. More NPC stations so there are no remote regions of space (wait what???)

and so on. It's pretty much evolved from a fatigue whine thread into a stealth bad idea thread. Isn't there a moderator with a canned "this thread has run its course" quote on standby? Can we cov cyno him in on to of this thread?



Er... fatigue is relatively new. Was anyone really using BLOPS as teleporting taxis pre-fatigue?

I don't recall that being the case. That's something I've done in a few very specific circumstances, but it was certainly not an every-day thing. You obviously couldn't go "where ever [you] wanted to go" faster than an interceptor unless you happened to have access to a galaxy-spanning network of cynos.


They didn't use BLOPS as teleporting taxi because carrier were available and brought an non negligible amount of other stuff on top of themselves. BLOPS getting no fatigue or something really close to it would not only be an option to taxi-teleport added to the game but the only one and thus, the most efficient. We can't predict if they will really be used as such or not because we have no history to look at except one thing, the EVE player base will push any possibility to it's very limit to get any type of advantage.


I doubt it. You can cover 30+ jumps in 20 minutes in an interceptor. 100% uncatchable barring discos, no alts or hassle required and like...20 million as opposed to a billion for the hull alone, plus fuel.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#116 - 2015-11-05 19:32:57 UTC
Eh, all the ideas about BLOPs potentially being instant taxis across the cluster with even just a small, incremental change or push in the right direction are a little reactionary and not very well reasoned.

Also implicit to these ideas is that mistaken belief that somehow power projection under the current system is actually effectively reigned in. Hint: it's not.

People were non-ironically clamouring about battle rorquals when the Phoebe changes were announced. Besides for a few heroic pilots...these claims have turned out to be a lot of hot air. Making BLOPS more mobile than capital ships, of which they are current not appreciably more mobile, will not have the cataclysmic changes people are claiming.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-11-05 19:54:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
My stance is that this is still a game. Fatigue effectively murdered much of the nomadic lifestyle, and really created problems for 'move ops.' Being a low/null mercenary group became a nigh impossible occupation to hold, given the 3 days before and after a contract one would have to spend moving stuff from place to place, assuming they were able to be online for 'move ops.' Insert all the move op arguments you would like, but it's still a game. Life happens, people can't just be logged in 24/7 to jump a ship every hour on the hour. Fatigue did do its job in reducing the 'one supercapital blob moving across the entire cluster to fight the other supercapital blob'.... but the cost for doing so was too high to much of the rest of the game. I don't presume to know the best way to fix it so it still does its job while allowing the game to still be a game, but Fatigue as it is is still pretty severe.


The size of the universe is supposed to matter. People being used to nomadic life where crossing the universe in less than an hours does not mean it was good gameplay that needs to come back.



Not really what I said at all mate. Reread it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2015-11-05 20:13:23 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
My stance is that this is still a game. Fatigue effectively murdered much of the nomadic lifestyle, and really created problems for 'move ops.' Being a low/null mercenary group became a nigh impossible occupation to hold, given the 3 days before and after a contract one would have to spend moving stuff from place to place, assuming they were able to be online for 'move ops.' Insert all the move op arguments you would like, but it's still a game. Life happens, people can't just be logged in 24/7 to jump a ship every hour on the hour. Fatigue did do its job in reducing the 'one supercapital blob moving across the entire cluster to fight the other supercapital blob'.... but the cost for doing so was too high to much of the rest of the game. I don't presume to know the best way to fix it so it still does its job while allowing the game to still be a game, but Fatigue as it is is still pretty severe.


The size of the universe is supposed to matter. People being used to nomadic life where crossing the universe in less than an hours does not mean it was good gameplay that needs to come back.



Not really what I said at all mate. Reread it.


You can't remove the hassle of travelling without the universe size matter less. If you can more freely travel by leaps of X LY instead of using consecutive gates, then the universe is virtually smaller because you can travel across it faster. I think the size of the universe is supposed to matter and no be crossable in a rapid peace unless you are willing to pay the "gate travel danger tax" or the "WH danger tax" to do so. Can BLOPS get less fatigue or more range/jumps? Maybe but people need to keep in mind it is more than likely intended that you can't go from A to B freely with any form of jump/bridge anymore. The nomadic lifestyle got nerfed by this of course but I'm not sure it's good for the game to be able to freely deploy from one side of the universe to the other like we used to.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#119 - 2015-11-05 22:18:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The nomadic lifestyle got nerfed by this of course but I'm not sure it's good for the game to be able to freely deploy from one side of the universe to the other like we used to.



Surely there is a goldilocks zone. Pre-Phoebe, distance meant nothing with instant travel being the only travel. Now we are reduced to space ox-carts, particularly ones with square wheels. Surely a happy medium would have been for the better of all possible worlds.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#120 - 2015-11-06 01:12:34 UTC
If only there was a way to move from star system to star system. That was always there. That you could always use. That didn't require fuel, capacitor or accrue fatigue. A gate between stars if you will. We could call it something simple. A Stargate.