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Cloaking Improvements
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Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#1 - 2011-12-12 01:45:41 UTC
With the return of more stupid afk cloaking whine threads, I figured a thread for those of us that would like to see features that improve cloaking would be nice for a change. Big smile

* Only non cloaked vehicles and structures occupied or directly controlled by players should break a cloak. Piloted Ships, controlled drones, fighters, probes, POSes, and Stations etc. Not can spam, wrecks, and asteroids.

* All CovOps ships gaining Bombers 0 targeting recalibration after de-cloaking. Either free or by an advanced Cloak Skill that requires Cloaking V.

* Removing Cloaked ships from Local (This is the minimal change, but the better change would be to remove Local Chat Intel altogether benefiting all ship types and replace with an improved DScan)

I know there's long been called for improvements for Black-Ops ships, but I'll let someone else that's more familiar with their use add good improvements for them.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-12-12 02:01:29 UTC
+1

I like everything I see in this thread.

Also Blk Ops needs the ability to use Cov Ops cloaking devices.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Sparky11080
Repercussus
#3 - 2011-12-12 04:24:37 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
+1

I like everything I see in this thread.

Also Blk Ops needs the ability to use Cov Ops cloaking devices.



I agree with the original post also, however I don't believe BLOPS needs a covert cloak. They're purpose is used as intended...for a way to jump a large group of cloaky ships into whatever the hell is on the other side.

Their primary purpose is not the all around damage entity that can cloak and give people heart attacks...that's what bombers are for. Each cloaky gains the cloak bonus at the expense of being a perfect ship...each has it's own purpose. Bombers for damage, recons for ewar, black ops to get people there, and covops to scan poor souls down.

Giving black ops a covert cloak will just remove the need for bombers all together, and you could just jump 10 BLOPS in and kill everything and disappear, with minimal risk vs reward.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-12-12 04:50:55 UTC
+1 to the OP

I don't know how many times an ambush has been ruined due to random astroids or something else that I brush by when coming out of warp. I can account for almost everything but large collidable objects, they are a pain

No targeting recal on cloaking 5 would be amazing and it would be the only time that i finish cloaking to V

Local and Cloaky need to get divorced, there is nothing good that stems from a future together

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#5 - 2011-12-13 05:51:32 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:

Local and Cloaky need to get divorced, there is nothing good that stems from a future together


Yes, this really is the number one issue for cloaking. Local Chat intel makes any sort of real sneaking about essentially impossible. My understanding is that Local's Intel functions and it's implications for gameplay was an oversight not a specific design decision by CCP, but somehow over the years it's become viewed as an actual feature, despite its clearly game breaking effects.

While I agree that removing cloaked ships from Local would be an obvious first step, I really think the better and fairer approach is to remove all player characters from Local regardless of ship type. Then improve DScan as the basic tool for intel and awareness.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#6 - 2011-12-25 09:24:09 UTC
Happy Festivus to all the cloakies, friends, and sneaky people, even the afk ones.

back on topic....

Do most Black ops pilots think their ships need CovOps cloaks? I was under the impression the boost they needed the most was having to use less fuel or be able to carry more, and having a slightly longer jump range.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-12-25 11:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Xorv wrote:

* Only non cloaked vehicles and structures occupied or directly controlled by players should break a cloak. Piloted Ships, controlled drones, fighters, probes, POSes, and Stations etc. Not can spam, wrecks, and asteroids.


Strangely I'd say no to this, however I would like to see asteroids bump "zone" tweaked to match the model rather than extending a random distance. Weaving through/ around objects is part and parcel of running cloaked, and takes practice. I'm all for having to be extremely careful around objects.

Quote:
* All CovOps ships gaining Bombers 0 targeting recalibration after de-cloaking. Either free or by an advanced Cloak Skill that requires Cloaking V.


This is a nice idea, particularly as an advanced skill that would reduce the delay to zero at level 5. Pilgrim pilot reporting in Blink

Quote:
* Removing Cloaked ships from Local (This is the minimal change, but the better change would be to remove Local Chat Intel altogether benefiting all ship types and replace with an improved DScan)


Yes, but only as part of a re-vamp of the whole d-scan/ probing mechanic. Death to local! At the very least, remove the standings flag from local chat and introduce an inst-ban for anyone caught using programs to counter this (if that's possible without nasty intrusive monitoring software). If necessary, just have a local count with a delayed channel list.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#8 - 2011-12-25 17:32:45 UTC
-1 learn to fly better. P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Heisenburg Certainty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-12-25 20:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Heisenburg Certainty
ok so move into a -1.0 system at 5 am with no one on in your ****** 200mil recon pilots with mediocre skills, wait till prime time, find a 1 bil faciton bs in sanc, uncloak and point with no recalibration time and get a juice 1 bil kill....wtf is wrong with ppl...afk cloaking is a real issue one scrub in a recon shuts down an entire alliances pve, especially with the switch to truesec and you cant just upgrade systems, theres a reason its every null sec alliances policy to advise against ratting with an afk cloak in system, yea you can try to have a counter fleet but the hot drop chance makes it not worth ever undocking t2 or faction bs's, im not a carebear this is mostly a pvp game but PVE should at least have a chance and be somewhat balanced.

edit* cause cloaks to slowely consume fuel would help for one, disconnect from local is an option but then id have to argue for an increase in recalibration time
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-27 02:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Heisenburg Certainty wrote:
ok so move into a -1.0 system at 5 am with no one on in your ****** 200mil recon pilots with mediocre skills, wait till prime time, find a 1 bil faciton bs in sanc, uncloak and point with no recalibration time and get a juice 1 bil kill....wtf is wrong with ppl...afk cloaking is a real issue one scrub in a recon shuts down an entire alliances pve, especially with the switch to truesec and you cant just upgrade systems, theres a reason its every null sec alliances policy to advise against ratting with an afk cloak in system, yea you can try to have a counter fleet but the hot drop chance makes it not worth ever undocking t2 or faction bs's, im not a carebear this is mostly a pvp game but PVE should at least have a chance and be somewhat balanced.

edit* cause cloaks to slowely consume fuel would help for one, disconnect from local is an option but then id have to argue for an increase in recalibration time



If that alliance refuses to escort its pilots it deserves to lose its PVE. I'd argue they deserve to lose everything they may have as a resource including the pilots themselves.
Heisenburg Certainty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-12-27 05:06:59 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Heisenburg Certainty wrote:
ok so move into a -1.0 system at 5 am with no one on in your ****** 200mil recon pilots with mediocre skills, wait till prime time, find a 1 bil faciton bs in sanc, uncloak and point with no recalibration time and get a juice 1 bil kill....wtf is wrong with ppl...afk cloaking is a real issue one scrub in a recon shuts down an entire alliances pve, especially with the switch to truesec and you cant just upgrade systems, theres a reason its every null sec alliances policy to advise against ratting with an afk cloak in system, yea you can try to have a counter fleet but the hot drop chance makes it not worth ever undocking t2 or faction bs's, im not a carebear this is mostly a pvp game but PVE should at least have a chance and be somewhat balanced.

edit* cause cloaks to slowely consume fuel would help for one, disconnect from local is an option but then id have to argue for an increase in recalibration time



If that alliance refuses to escort its pilots it deserves to lose its PVE. I'd argue they deserve to lose everything they may have as a resource including the pilots themselves.


its called a hotdrop tard and due to the cloaky in system they will always know how big your counter fleet can be while you have no iea how many they might be able to hot drop in on you, "escorting" is not effective
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-12-27 05:23:02 UTC
Escorting can be quite effective, contrary to popular belief most bomber pilots fly solo for most of the time. There isn't always a full bomber fleet with black ops standing by waiting breathlessly to kill your ratting ship.

Having local be seperated from the bomber is also an easy solution to counter this. Then the ambusher doesn't know how many people lay in wait to kill him until he's sprung the trap, or uncloaks to check, but then he reveals himself.

I still support OP +1

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2011-12-27 11:11:12 UTC
Heisenburg Certainty wrote:
afk cloaking is a real issue one scrub in a recon shuts down an entire alliances pve
No and no, in that order.

The only one who can shut down an entire alliance's PvE is the alliance leader (and even then, he needs a lot of help from the alliance members).
Mag's
Azn Empire
#14 - 2011-12-27 12:18:36 UTC
Heisenburg Certainty wrote:
ok so move into a -1.0 system at 5 am with no one on in your ****** 200mil recon pilots with mediocre skills, wait till prime time, find a 1 bil faciton bs in sanc, uncloak and point with no recalibration time and get a juice 1 bil kill....wtf is wrong with ppl...afk cloaking is a real issue one scrub in a recon shuts down an entire alliances pve, especially with the switch to truesec and you cant just upgrade systems, theres a reason its every null sec alliances policy to advise against ratting with an afk cloak in system, yea you can try to have a counter fleet but the hot drop chance makes it not worth ever undocking t2 or faction bs's, im not a carebear this is mostly a pvp game but PVE should at least have a chance and be somewhat balanced.

edit* cause cloaks to slowely consume fuel would help for one, disconnect from local is an option but then id have to argue for an increase in recalibration time
How do they shut down PvE, whilst AFK?
Also, what mechanic are they using to interact with you, whilst AFK?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-12-27 13:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Xorv wrote:
* Removing Cloaked ships from Local (This is the minimal change, but the better change would be to remove Local Chat Intel altogether benefiting all ship types and replace with an improved DScan)

You call this a "minimal change", but it has a drastic effect on how much time and effort everyone has to put in just to enable some others to make some isk without losing their ship. In the end, it'd make more sense to just go do L4s or incursions in hisec to make isk, and keep the PVP char in null for PVP ops alone.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#16 - 2011-12-27 13:58:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Xorv wrote:
* Removing Cloaked ships from Local (This is the minimal change, but the better change would be to remove Local Chat Intel altogether benefiting all ship types and replace with an improved DScan)

You call this a "minimal change", but it has a drastic effect on how much time and effort everyone has to put in just to enable some others to make some isk without losing their ship. In the end, it'd make more sense to just go do L4s or incursions in hisec to make isk, and keep the PVP char in null for PVP ops alone.


You'll have to forgive the OP Zim. I don't think he subscribes to the concept that null space is supposed to be perfectly safe for the solo PvE fit ratting ship. The nerve of him.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-12-27 14:15:30 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You'll have to forgive the OP Zim. I don't think he subscribes to the concept that null space is supposed to be perfectly safe for the solo PvE fit ratting ship. The nerve of him.

I don't see anyone suggesting it should be perfectly safe. Unless, of course, you mean I can park any ship, anywhere in nullsec, right now and still come back to a ship 10 hours later and not a pod in a station.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-12-27 14:42:47 UTC
In a game where you're already virtually blind, I don't think cloaks need any improvements really.

D-Scan does need a vast improvement. Automatic cycling instead of spamming the scan button, longer range, show the distance to the contact so you can deduce where it is, and show the corp/alliance of who is flying the ship along with a standings icon.

Local is still useful though, you want to watch it for when it spikes so I'd keep it, or make gate activation visible across the whole starsystem, maybe pulse the icon blue or something.

I don't care if there are modules or skills needed to improve dscan but it is in need of something.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#19 - 2011-12-27 20:24:42 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

You'll have to forgive the OP Zim. I don't think he subscribes to the concept that null space is supposed to be perfectly safe for the solo PvE fit ratting ship. The nerve of him.


That would be correct. More significantly I don't subscribe to the idea of PvP and PvE being completely separated from one another like in Themepark type MMOs. Reading between the lines that's what I see Lord Zim and other hostile posters supporting: That you PvE completely free from any real chance of PvP, then with the funds you made in PvE, you go PvP. Or put another way you go to work then with the money you earned you get to go on the roller-coaster ride. That isn't a Sandbox MMO and it isn't a PvP MMO, and EVE is supposed to be both.

Zim, by all means correct me if my assumptions are wrong about you and explain yourself, but my only other theories for you are that you're trolling or trying to protect income from PvP-phobic renters or something. You comments about High Sec lvl 4s or Incursions are irrelevant as I imagine almost everyone here asking for Local Intel removal would also favor addressing the completely out of balance Risk vs Reward that currently exists in High Sec.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-27 21:16:09 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Zim, by all means correct me if my assumptions are wrong about you and explain yourself, but my only other theories for you are that you're trolling or trying to protect income from PvP-phobic renters or something. You comments about High Sec lvl 4s or Incursions are irrelevant as I imagine almost everyone here asking for Local Intel removal would also favor addressing the completely out of balance Risk vs Reward that currently exists in High Sec.

I don't see why you think I'm trolling, since I'm not saying something which should come as a great surprise to anyone: add risk without adding reward, and people will leave. I also don't see why I should be protecting income from some "pvp-phobic renter", since we ... (dramatic drumroll) ... have none. I'm all for there being risk in nullsec (hint: there is. Ask anyone who's lost a station the past few months if there's risk in nullsec), but I'm not for there being so much risk as the "remove local", "delay local" or "remove cloaked ships from local" people wants there to be without a subsequent boost in profitability to match.

I've been vocal before about having incursions and to a certain extent L4s nerfed slightly to encourage people to move out to nullsec, because I want nullsec to be more populous than it is right now, if only because there'll be even more tears when we do go to burn it to the ground. But if you've been in any of the "nerf hisec incursions" threads, all you'll get is "wah wah wah them nullseccers just want to ruin the game so they can run their bots in peace" or the like. Good luck getting anything done in such a thread.

But please, tell me why you think I'm trolling when I'm being vocal against a change which'll drastically change the risk/reward ratio, to the point where hisec would be a much better place to go to actually earn ISK, and to actually make a system safe you'd have a lot of people expending a lot of time just staring at a gate or wormhole or sitting and waiting for something to happen, while someone else earns ISK. And whenever I've been supportive of any change which would make those changes more balanced (i.e. some give and take on both sides), it's shut down because of someone's precious wormholes would get a minor change.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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