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Faction Warfare and Citadels: Bonuses

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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#21 - 2015-11-05 01:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Fuel will be quite trivial in relation to the advantages of an effective station in hostile systems. Multiple stage viln windows will just attract massive fusterclucks in our warzone as squids batphone 3 or more large entities like they do for any other timer. Fw works best when its always on. The advantages of citadels are too great to have such an extended period of off each day.

Im not saying ccp are going to break from tradition and balance new features before they break aspects of the game with them. No, they will ignore all feedback, lose subs and then fix it never to regain the people that left, as per usual. Im just saying, as interesting as these new stations are, they are fundementally incompatible with fw as it stands. Importantly, incompatible with the single mechanic that has made fw so compelling for so many for so long.

Im sure there will be a period of flux where people are min maxing the use of these structures. But as andre has pointed out elsewhere, the min max of these structures is easy to predict in fw low sec and unless you are vesk and blinded by love, its hard to value a short term flux in experimental play over a long term healthy warzone.

Vesk sees a future where npcs do all the defending. I see a future where there multiple hostile citadels in every homesystem plexing them up out of their residents prime time leading to much greater need for dplex alts. Ive already seen it with posses, though i do pity anyone living out of a pos so i can accept that.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#22 - 2015-11-05 14:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
We should be talking about penalties for these things, and not bonuses. They'll be called siege Citadels, and that's what they'll be used for. The docking check on restrictions might soften their impact, but ultimately put into question their purpose in the WZ. If these are intended to replace PoS, which are working just fine after recent changes, then I think that is such a sad waste. These are such a great idea, but so OP if they are to phase out PoS. Why would anyone build a station with these available? My initial comment for bonuses may have seemed out from left field, but if you really thought about it, having these become the objective that is bashed for system control would make them the greatest conflict driver we can have. An icon of envy and aggression; those who would build it invite war. And we all know fozziesov was framed on the principles of FW, and it could easily become the best change down there too. Alas, their uniqueness will not find their potential as replacements to towers, and that sucks.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#23 - 2015-11-05 15:31:57 UTC
I still really like the idea of replacing ihubs with FW structures (Citadels) with 24/7 vuln windows that are immune until system goes vuln.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#24 - 2015-11-05 16:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
I still really like the idea of replacing ihubs with FW structures (Citadels) with 24/7 vuln windows that are immune until system goes vuln.


It already takes so long to grind a system that the extra time would be pretty redundant and such a buzz kill. People should be fighting the whole time to get it out of reinforced (vulnerable) mode. Except I would make offensive attachments vulnerable, regardless of system levels, much as they are on towers, being that they are outside the PoS shield. Com'on CCP! Take a giant leap forward instead of a step back with what this looks like atm.

+1 for iHub hats
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#25 - 2015-11-05 20:36:39 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
I still really like the idea of replacing ihubs with FW structures (Citadels) with 24/7 vuln windows that are immune until system goes vuln.


It already takes so long to grind a system that the extra time would be pretty redundant and such a buzz kill. People should be fighting the whole time to get it out of reinforced (vulnerable) mode. Except I would make offensive attachments vulnerable, regardless of system levels, much as they are on towers, being that they are outside the PoS shield. Com'on CCP! Take a giant leap forward instead of a step back with what this looks like atm.

+1 for iHub hats


should have said without a RF timer as well.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#26 - 2015-11-09 12:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
I appreciate your bringing this up in this community.

But I don't think we need more consequences for the currently broken sov warfare game where alts in stabbed and empty frigates hold systems. CCP needs to focus on fixing rabbit plexing instead of just giving it more rewards. Please keep them focused.

And Crosi I plexed all sorts of home systems when I used to pvp. No one bothers to fight. Because they can just wait until I leave and then put an alt in an empty frigate and dplex the system. Why risk a ship?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#27 - 2015-11-09 17:12:59 UTC
I think you are projecting. People hate fighting me but they still come and do it in most busy systems.

If people fight in one warzone, but not the other, thats not indicative of broken mechanics. Just the outcome of a sequence of player decisions.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#28 - 2015-11-09 18:33:41 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I think you are projecting. People hate fighting me but they still come and do it in most busy systems.

If people fight in one warzone, but not the other, thats not indicative of broken mechanics. Just the outcome of a sequence of player decisions.



It is underwhelming when offensive plexing for a fight is so out-done by mission running. People ask you why u do it! You shrug. That, I think, is symptomatic to how the mission mechanics do affect who goes out in a pvp frigate as opposed to who will go out in a mission fit. In our warzone, going out for offensive plexing turns out being a reward in itself, even if you don't find a fight. Multiply that by every gal pilot that shares the same mentality and you have a huge perception shift that cultivates pvp.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#29 - 2015-11-09 19:28:39 UTC
I didn't just mean the amarr minmatar front. I can sit in a home system for 20 minutes with no fight. And usually the fights don't even come from faction war guys. It comes from neutrals who just happen to come by.

I would love it if a csm would take note of the top weekly vp gainers killboard in faction war and ask ccp if that is how they intend FW sov to work. Because the way they dropped rollbacks and better intel tools, I am not sure if they really do intend it to be something you can do to farm lp with an alt.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#30 - 2015-11-09 19:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
How farmers run plexes for both sides in dead end stationless systems probably isnt high on ccps cares.

You keep talking about these high vp farmers, ignorant of the fact that the system they farm hasnt changed hands in a long time. Ergo they are having zero effect on the warzone. At best you could say they are gaming one system that can be completely ignored with no detriment to the warzone.

Dont get me wrong, id like farmers to have a rough time. But you fixate on these top 3 dudes who have had no effect on occupancy dispite their vp numbers as though it is a major problem.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#31 - 2015-11-09 20:03:47 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
How farmers run plexes for both sides in dead end stationless systems probably isnt high on ccps cares.

You keep talking about these high vp farmers, ignorant of the fact that the system they farm hasn't changed hands in a long time. Ergo they are having zero effect on the warzone. At best you could say they are gaming one system that can be completely ignored with no detriment to the warzone.

Dont get me wrong, id like farmers to have a rough time. But you fixate on these top 3 dudes who have had no effect on occupancy dispite their vp numbers as though it is a major problem.



They have had a bigger impact on occupancy than you have with your random pvp in your boosted garmur. Your saying their gaining vp means nothing for sov demonstrates your ignorance of the mechanics. The fact that everyone thought the extra point on the maulus was directed at faction war speaks volumes.

Anyway Crosi we all know you are fine with this situation. But few really care about our views. I would like to hear CCPs view on whether this is intended and they are fine with it.

I would not bet that these systems are all dead end or station-less. But even if they are they contribute to tiers and security. Oh yeah and when citadels come out it is unclear how important stations in a system are going to be. I haven't really thought it through yet, and we don't really have that much information to base predictions on.

I have never just fixated on the top three. Look at the top 20 or whatever you want. But look at the weeks over a period of time and look at their killboards for the times they get those top spots.

Sugar
Without understanding how these bonuses will work with the new 4 way war and with the "affiliated" alliances it is hard to really know what should happen. If CCP gives large enough bonuses it may lead to some neutral groups just flat out supporting the winning militia so their citadels owned by their militia alt corps get the benefits.

But I would say adding more consequences to a broken sov system does not make sense. Fix the sov war first. Then add consequences.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#32 - 2015-11-10 02:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
How farmers run plexes for both sides in dead end stationless systems probably isnt high on ccps cares.

You keep talking about these high vp farmers, ignorant of the fact that the system they farm hasn't changed hands in a long time. Ergo they are having zero effect on the warzone. At best you could say they are gaming one system that can be completely ignored with no detriment to the warzone.

Dont get me wrong, id like farmers to have a rough time. But you fixate on these top 3 dudes who have had no effect on occupancy dispite their vp numbers as though it is a major problem.



They have had a bigger impact on occupancy than you have with your random pvp in your boosted garmur. Your saying their gaining vp means nothing for sov demonstrates your ignorance of the mechanics. The fact that everyone thought the extra point on the maulus was directed at faction war speaks volumes.

Anyway Crosi we all know you are fine with this situation. But few really care about our views. I would like to hear CCPs view on whether this is intended and they are fine with it.

I would not bet that these systems are all dead end or station-less. But even if they are they contribute to tiers and security. Oh yeah and when citadels come out it is unclear how important stations in a system are going to be. I haven't really thought it through yet, and we don't really have that much information to base predictions on.

I have never just fixated on the top three. Look at the top 20 or whatever you want. But look at the weeks over a period of time and look at their killboards for the times they get those top spots.

Sugar
Without understanding how these bonuses will work with the new 4 way war and with the "affiliated" alliances it is hard to really know what should happen. If CCP gives large enough bonuses it may lead to some neutral groups just flat out supporting the winning militia so their citadels owned by their militia alt corps get the benefits.

But I would say adding more consequences to a broken sov system does not make sense. Fix the sov war first. Then add consequences.





While i havent been on much the last two weeks, to say that a farmer in teimo has had a greater effect on the warzone than i have is the height of ignorance.

While teimo has not changed hands and people have farmed lp, i have been vanguard in many defensive systems against small groups of russians and the evoke and brave alliance alike.

Even among people who hav zero respect for me you would have hard job arguing otherwise.

The top lp earner in fw works soley out of teimo. The fact you ignore that teimo is a nothing systm that is not changing hands illustrates that you have no integrity when you argue stats.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2015-11-10 05:53:05 UTC
I think if you have a citadel in system a 100% bonus to your off grid links would be a nice idea.

I am sure everyone that posts in this forums section would agree.


PPP
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#34 - 2015-11-10 14:29:54 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
I think if you have a citadel in system a 100% bonus to your off grid links would be a nice idea.

I am sure everyone that posts in this forums section would agree.


PPP



totes
Nikolai Agnon
Khanid Propulsion Systems
Local Is Primary
#35 - 2015-11-11 01:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikolai Agnon
Fuel costs have been mentioned a few times. +1 to those.

In sov null, sov owners have 15 minute structure repair timers, whereas deploying in hostile space is a full 60 minute time. In lowsec and WH space, this is 30 minutes. I'd love to see that 30 minute timer be reduced by 3 minutes per iHub upgrade level (thus, 15 minutes if you live in a fully upgraded home system), only for that militia. Mechanics like this would be difficult for neutrals to abuse by using one-man FW-alt holding corps (since it requires significant investment to keep a system upgraded, but is easy to degrade).

This would have multiple implications. The timer buff could be reduced to nil in as short as a few days if the system is being successfully hellcamped by the opposing militia, but would be easy to maintain if you have solid coverage on all the timezones. Neutrals interested in harming a FW citadel would then be encouraged to at least slightly work together with that citadel's enemies.

To avoid exploitation of upgrades in general (though not directly involved with the above suggestions):
-Any citadel placed by a non-FW entity should NOT receive any upgrade bonuses
-Any citadel placed by a FW entity should NOT be able to allow enemy militias to dock (full freeport mode in FW-systems would be impossible to own if the owning corp is in FW)
-Therefore, in no scenario can the ihub bonuses be used by the enemy militia.

This would prevent, for instance, Amarr players from using a Minmatar alt to anchor a citadel in a Minmatar system and letting Amarr use it, with full ihub bonuses, to siege the Minmatar system.

Edit: As corollary to the above anti-exploitation, there shouldn't be any standings penalties for shooting citadels owned by your militia, to avoid "standings-shielding" via FW holding-corps.

Nikolai Agnon for CSM XI!

FacWar | Lowsec | PVE | API

Starscream Tinn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-11-11 10:30:05 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
some of my ideas:

citadel atributes
2% bonus to all citadel resists(hp or anything like that) per tier
-from RP view is logical, that militias things would be more dangerous, because war conflict etc

citadel repair service
20% reduction of repair cost per tier -> T5 = free repair for militia ppl which has docking rights
..
citadel market module
5-10% reduction for broker fee or sales tax per tier

citadel production/research module
1% reduction in manufacturing/research required materials per tier

+ special citadel module

24th crusade(+others) LP shop/fw agent service in citadel
-works only in T5 system
5% sale on LP requirements in LP shop

+ not citadel relevant

mobile things decay
scan & cyno inhibitors, siphons, mobile mjd and other things get doubled lifetime in upgraded Tier5 system



I like these except the 5% sale on LP
Starscream Tinn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-11-11 10:32:12 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
I think if you have a citadel in system a 100% bonus to your off grid links would be a nice idea.

I am sure everyone that posts in this forums section would agree.


PPP



far too good extra 1% per level maybe
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#38 - 2015-11-15 14:09:24 UTC
Adding nulsec anomalies. Would add pve content to lowsec and pvp from ganking the bears running them...

Cyno jammer, can make it use fuel like crazy so having it online all the time wouldn't be smart.

A beacon with a really long cooldown that when activated spawns a friendly npc fleet to defend the citadel.

Something to despawn an enemy's in-system mission after a long delay, that gets you half the LP they would have got for completing their mission. (something that should have been built into FW missions from the beginning)

Something to cause friendly NPCs to spawn on the gates, quality/number dependant on system upgrade level

In-system jump drive. Pretty much a jump drive/MJD that can teleport you to a specific spot in the system, make it use fuel dependant on mass like a blops bridge. Inability to warp straight into a plex or specific spot in deadspace, of course.

The system upgrades we have right now are worthless in stations without lab slots and industry slots and such. Would be nice if the upgrade level affected the industry junk at the citadels.

System upgrades giving bonuses to friendly citadel weapons.



I'd have to dig back pretty far to remember the good ideas people had back in the day for system upgrades, but a cyno jammer was at the top of the list.

Adding pve activities to the system isn't a bad idea. It might attract people into FW, could give low-tier militias an income, and could provide for good pvp opportunities.







Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-11-15 15:44:20 UTC
Nikolai Agnon wrote:
Fuel costs have been mentioned a few times. +1 to those.

In sov null, sov owners have 15 minute structure repair timers, whereas deploying in hostile space is a full 60 minute time. In lowsec and WH space, this is 30 minutes. I'd love to see that 30 minute timer be reduced by 3 minutes per iHub upgrade level (thus, 15 minutes if you live in a fully upgraded home system), only for that militia. Mechanics like this would be difficult for neutrals to abuse by using one-man FW-alt holding corps (since it requires significant investment to keep a system upgraded, but is easy to degrade).

This would have multiple implications. The timer buff could be reduced to nil in as short as a few days if the system is being successfully hellcamped by the opposing militia, but would be easy to maintain if you have solid coverage on all the timezones. Neutrals interested in harming a FW citadel would then be encouraged to at least slightly work together with that citadel's enemies.

To avoid exploitation of upgrades in general (though not directly involved with the above suggestions):
-Any citadel placed by a non-FW entity should NOT receive any upgrade bonuses
-Any citadel placed by a FW entity should NOT be able to allow enemy militias to dock (full freeport mode in FW-systems would be impossible to own if the owning corp is in FW)
-Therefore, in no scenario can the ihub bonuses be used by the enemy militia.

This would prevent, for instance, Amarr players from using a Minmatar alt to anchor a citadel in a Minmatar system and letting Amarr use it, with full ihub bonuses, to siege the Minmatar system.

Edit: As corollary to the above anti-exploitation, there shouldn't be any standings penalties for shooting citadels owned by your militia, to avoid "standings-shielding" via FW holding-corps.

I like these ideas - basically it makes FW a sov system (which realistically it is), expands the vulnerability of citadels owned by folks that don't own the system sov (think that neutral citadels should have the same penalties). That accomplishes the same goal I was trying to hit - expanded vulnerability - while not needing NPC gimmicks.

As far as docking rights... I think citadels from one FW entity should never allow docking by opposed FW entities (which would be all of them). Neutral citadels should allow docking for whoever they please - but should have the same expanded vulnerability as any other non-sov holding entity dropping a citadel in space they don't own.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-12-28 01:11:49 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Adding nulsec anomalies. Would add pve content to lowsec and pvp from ganking the bears running them...

Cyno jammer, can make it use fuel like crazy so having it online all the time wouldn't be smart.

A beacon with a really long cooldown that when activated spawns a friendly npc fleet to defend the citadel.

Something to despawn an enemy's in-system mission after a long delay, that gets you half the LP they would have got for completing their mission. (something that should have been built into FW missions from the beginning)

Something to cause friendly NPCs to spawn on the gates, quality/number dependant on system upgrade level

In-system jump drive. Pretty much a jump drive/MJD that can teleport you to a specific spot in the system, make it use fuel dependant on mass like a blops bridge. Inability to warp straight into a plex or specific spot in deadspace, of course.

The system upgrades we have right now are worthless in stations without lab slots and industry slots and such. Would be nice if the upgrade level affected the industry junk at the citadels.

System upgrades giving bonuses to friendly citadel weapons.



I'd have to dig back pretty far to remember the good ideas people had back in the day for system upgrades, but a cyno jammer was at the top of the list.

Adding pve activities to the system isn't a bad idea. It might attract people into FW, could give low-tier militias an income, and could provide for good pvp opportunities.








all of these bonuses should apply to fw citadels

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

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