These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Still Very Little Reason to Employ Combat Recon Ships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#21 - 2015-11-01 03:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
The proposed Caldari Griffin Navy Issue frigate, a ship specifically designed for solo/micro-gang according to Fozzie, has bonuses that are similar to the Caldari Rook.

Griffin Navy Issue
Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
20% bonus to ECM strength
Misc Bonus:
-85% penalty to ECM optimal range and falloff
-50% reduction to ECM Jammer activation cost

Rook
Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer activation cost
Recon Ships bonuses (per skill level):
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity
Role Bonus:
• Cannot be detected by directional scanners

Leads me to believe there is a sort of ship progression intended between these two and that solo/micro-gang is therefore the intended role of the Rook as well. Possibly the same with the other factions.

Is the issue a case of trying to stick the square (solo) peg in the round (fleet) hole, then complaining it doesn't work? Or are they bad even there?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2015-11-01 03:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Zirashi wrote:
... and that solo/micro-gang is therefore the intended role of the Rook as well. Possibly the same with the other factions.

Is the issue a case of trying to stick the square (solo) peg in the round (fleet) hole, then complaining it doesn't work? Or are they bad even there?

Not sure that solo/micro-gang was the intended role. I don't think there was a specific intended role other than making the recons more viable for fleet combat.

Initially, the resist profile was going to be full T2, to make them viable for fleet operations, but when that was felt too strong for solo/micro-gang opposition, the resist profile for all 8 was set to the former combat recon profile and their sig radius was reduced slightly to compensate, hoping that this would still make them fleet viable, but not solo/small-gang oppressive.

The two most relevant posts from CCP Rise on that are here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5322500#post5322500
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5335877#post5335877

It's not that they aren't intended for solo/micro-gang at all. They can be used for that (I still occasionally come across them in medium FW plexes), but the balance was aimed at making them more fleet viable if my reading is correct.

The new faction ewar frigates are definitely aimed as solo/micro-gang.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-11-01 05:01:34 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
Still very little reason to continue playing.
Just send me your stuff and get it over with.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#24 - 2015-11-01 05:34:36 UTC
The ECM Navy frigates are aimed at solo / micro / small gang stuff

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Kranosh
Fracking Off LTD
#25 - 2015-11-01 06:48:04 UTC
You obviously haven't deployed them in faction warfare. They have a very interesting niche in this environment for baiting fights
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#26 - 2015-11-01 13:03:21 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
From zkillboard active pvp, so the last 7 days:
curse 1,726 Pilgrim 925
Rook 426 Falcon 1,000
Lachesis 2,192 Arazu 611
Huginn 2,653 Rapier 1,770

I'd say the force recons are doing pretty well.


Certainly from those stats, it looks like I'm in the minority. Thanks for that, by the way! It would be interesting to see where people are most often using them. Somebody suggested a specific role faction warfare as bait (but presumably also as a hunter in complexes).

As was suggested by some others, the combat recons are the choice ships to catch enemies in complexes.

How do people find combat recons perform in small gang roams? Personally I prefer the force (cloaked) recons because they have the added utility of covert cyno and the cloak allows them better control over when to commit to the fight.

As someone asked the question, I'm a null sec player and have been for a very long time and also dabbled into wormhole space. My knowledge of faction warfare is very poor and I don't engage in high sec warfare.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-11-01 19:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
I lost my daredevil to a curse all because he didn't show up on d-scan.

I caught the condor and started to gain on him before he sped out of web range. But just as I caught him I was hit with neuts. I was severely confused about where they came from in the moment but realized quickly there was a curse on me.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-11-02 00:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Also you have to remember an EWAR ships tank is its EWAR.

There is no amount of panting or webbing that can reduce the ability of a ship to shoot at you.



Have fun when even the vexor dies to a curse. He had two destroyers, but they lost just a destroyer as I couldn't get close enough to put my guns on the Curse, microwarps don't work when you are neuted.


I tried a rail thorax with a cap booster AND cap battery to throw some stress on his Ewar, and even with both of those I couldn't even turn on my damage control, he staggered all his neuts stopping the cap booster and the cap battery wasn't doing **** all to his cap.

Then there is Gallente Ewar. You have lots of fun in PVP when all you can do is sit there angrily while your opponent points and laughs. If you can control range then this stuff works better than ECM.

Caldari Ewar is.. Well.. ECM. Deal with it.


Minmatar ships are good at ranged slowing, but target painters amplify larger damage application to smaller targets. The Minmatar one just allows better damage application, but how is this a bad thing?

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#29 - 2015-11-02 14:49:49 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
The reason combat recons were not given the full T2 resist profile was because it would have completely changed fleet warfare and pushed HACs out of the picture.


While I cannto argue against what was stated as the reason by a certain dev, his logic was and clearly is still flawed. Combat Recons do not have the mobility or dps of HACs. In order for them to attain the same levels of tank, they would have to sacrifice nearly all of their EWAR. And then they would just be worse HACs.

Thus far, the only improvement to combat recons was as stated above, sitting in fw medium plexes waiting to catch the unwary solo plex farmer.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#30 - 2015-11-02 15:09:35 UTC
They're working just fine in FW space.

Also DScan immunity offers a few advantages over a covert ops cloak. You can often spot a Falcon coming if you're attentive as they will have to decloak at some point to reach you. Being immune to DScan also means you'll never appear on a parsed DScan list. Without having eyes on the fleet, you'd never know they had combat recons until they were on-grid with you or your scout, the same isn't true of their Force Recon equivalents.
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#31 - 2015-11-02 15:21:11 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Also you have to remember an EWAR ships tank is its EWAR.

There is no amount of panting or webbing that can reduce the ability of a ship to shoot at you.


you know what he means, don't get stupid.


Sorry, but I really don't know what he means. If you could please explain to me how to use webs and target painters to avoid taking damage from like 20 railgun tengus in a Huginn that would actually be really helpful to me.


logi watchlist?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-11-02 16:22:04 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Originally they were planned to have full T2 resists, but that was toned back a bit before release as a result of outcry about how it would be too strong when combined with d-scan immunity.

I would personally prefer the T2 resists because in general I agree with most of what you wrote.

I'm happy using either combat or force recon, but if I had to choose a preference, I think the force recon is better.


Yea because people are whimps.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-11-02 16:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
A Rook playing as tackle with a cloaked nano/hac gangs works great in Wormholes and on gates.

People have no idea. I tested the idea after a forum post about creating d'scan immunity modules. People ripped the idea, said it was OP, Or redundant with cloaks. I found it works great.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#34 - 2015-11-02 18:08:44 UTC
It's a fleet recon ship.

Not today spaghetti.
Ginger Yume
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-11-02 22:03:29 UTC
They see a lot of use in wormholes.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-11-03 00:11:46 UTC
Ginger Yume wrote:
They see a lot of use in wormholes.


Exactly. Incredibly, most people have no idea how to properly use them. There is a definite tactical use for that kinda of ship.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-11-03 00:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The "They're not meant for that scale of engagement" would be valid if alternatives existed, but they don't.

There are no gallente or minmatar ewar battleships to use in situations where recons are too light. In fact it's a small miracle that there just so happens to be a web range bonused battleship in the game and joy oh joy it's an expensive pirate faction hull.

Until those ships exist there's a gaping hole in the role tapestry where survivable ewar platforms should be.


Use a loki or a Proteus. D-scan immunity is EXTREMELY useful for small gang stuff...the ability to have one sitting 20 off your bait ship waiting for an opponent to land on grid with no cloaking delay is incredibly powerful, in addition to their being the best choice for hunting when accel gates are involved, with extremely powerful ranged e-war bonuses on top of that. I understand you can't have one sitting on field in a major engagement...it will be gone before reps land if called primary...but that is not what these ships are for and I am afraid if you give them HAC level EHP they will be too strong for solo and small gang.

D-scan immunity + 90k point and damps, or 40k neuts, or 50k webs or heavily bonused ECM...is a ridiculously good addition to any small gang. If people can't find uses for these they are lacking in imagination. If you want enough tank to sit on grid and survive getting primaried in a full on fleet scrap, there are other hulls that do that for a a bit higher cost. The shield kite Curse is already a monster for solo.


These ships are absolutely amazing when employed in their proper role. If you want to have one on-grid against a T3/guardian blob you are doing it wrong.

D-scan immunity does not strike me as a buff intended to make these hulls more viable as part of large fleet comps. To achieve that goal you would give them a significant EHP buff and maybe buffs to range/ewar rather than a buff intended to make them better for stealthy hunting. Both is too much.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-11-03 01:00:40 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
From zkillboard active pvp, so the last 7 days:
curse 1,726 Pilgrim 925
Rook 426 Falcon 1,000
Lachesis 2,192 Arazu 611
Huginn 2,653 Rapier 1,770

I'd say the force recons are doing pretty well.


Certainly from those stats, it looks like I'm in the minority. Thanks for that, by the way! It would be interesting to see where people are most often using them. Somebody suggested a specific role faction warfare as bait (but presumably also as a hunter in complexes).

As was suggested by some others, the combat recons are the choice ships to catch enemies in complexes.

How do people find combat recons perform in small gang roams? Personally I prefer the force (cloaked) recons because they have the added utility of covert cyno and the cloak allows them better control over when to commit to the fight.

As someone asked the question, I'm a null sec player and have been for a very long time and also dabbled into wormhole space. My knowledge of faction warfare is very poor and I don't engage in high sec warfare.


Curse + medium complex + suitably non-threatening bait ship = love.
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#39 - 2015-11-03 01:52:13 UTC
Maybe I am playing a different game but it never was about intended use , it was always about finding creative ways to come up with new things to do with them and surprise everybody.

If you want CCP to make a ship for one purpose and tell you all about it in the description it would be a rather boring game.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-11-03 14:03:41 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The "They're not meant for that scale of engagement" would be valid if alternatives existed, but they don't.

There are no gallente or minmatar ewar battleships to use in situations where recons are too light. In fact it's a small miracle that there just so happens to be a web range bonused battleship in the game and joy oh joy it's an expensive pirate faction hull.

Until those ships exist there's a gaping hole in the role tapestry where survivable ewar platforms should be.


Use a loki or a Proteus. D-scan immunity is EXTREMELY useful for small gang stuff...the ability to have one sitting 20 off your bait ship waiting for an opponent to land on grid with no cloaking delay is incredibly powerful, in addition to their being the best choice for hunting when accel gates are involved, with extremely powerful ranged e-war bonuses on top of that. I understand you can't have one sitting on field in a major engagement...it will be gone before reps land if called primary...but that is not what these ships are for and I am afraid if you give them HAC level EHP they will be too strong for solo and small gang.

D-scan immunity + 90k point and damps, or 40k neuts, or 50k webs or heavily bonused ECM...is a ridiculously good addition to any small gang. If people can't find uses for these they are lacking in imagination. If you want enough tank to sit on grid and survive getting primaried in a full on fleet scrap, there are other hulls that do that for a a bit higher cost. The shield kite Curse is already a monster for solo.


These ships are absolutely amazing when employed in their proper role. If you want to have one on-grid against a T3/guardian blob you are doing it wrong.

D-scan immunity does not strike me as a buff intended to make these hulls more viable as part of large fleet comps. To achieve that goal you would give them a significant EHP buff and maybe buffs to range/ewar rather than a buff intended to make them better for stealthy hunting. Both is too much.


Amen
Previous page123Next page