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[New Structures] Condensed thread

First post First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#241 - 2016-04-19 08:46:55 UTC
Ligraph wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
I think Clone Vat Bay of wormhole system's citadel should allow to revive after death in SAME system.


problem with this is it then becomes very very hard to evict anyone from the WH as they will have superior firepower when it comes to capitals and they can just keep spawning while your guys have to keep getting back in. the clone swapping mechanic is more than enough


Thats true. So wormhole revival should be limited by time - for example, one day of delay before next one. That is awesome to overcome random death (drifters...), but not a massive advantage of defenders.
Looks like its the only reason for wh citadel, because trade, titan docking and other functions are useless.


I like that. Maybe start at 3 days and have rigs/modules to decrease time. Although it would be a niche rig/module.


So uhh do I just not play for three days until I'm revived or what? Can I just jump back in after three days (I can already think of ways to break this)

Edwin Zavut
#242 - 2016-04-19 17:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin Zavut
[/quote]

So uhh do I just not play for three days until I'm revived or what? Can I just jump back in after three days (I can already think of ways to break this)

[/quote]

My final suggestion.
Every capsuleer can have ADDITIONAL AMOUNT of WH clones. He can set clone - being docked at citadel.
Capsuleer can choose additional WH clone for possible respawn - only being docked at THIS SPECIFIC citadel.
Capsuleer can cancel possibility of WH respawn - always and everywhere.

Conditions for wh respawn: null timer, location in system with established and CHOOSEN wh clone. All other cases triggers normal clone respawn (hi, low or null systems).
Every wh respawn starts timer.

No jumps.
Ligraph
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2016-04-20 20:26:03 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
I think Clone Vat Bay of wormhole system's citadel should allow to revive after death in SAME system.


problem with this is it then becomes very very hard to evict anyone from the WH as they will have superior firepower when it comes to capitals and they can just keep spawning while your guys have to keep getting back in. the clone swapping mechanic is more than enough


Thats true. So wormhole revival should be limited by time - for example, one day of delay before next one. That is awesome to overcome random death (drifters...), but not a massive advantage of defenders.
Looks like its the only reason for wh citadel, because trade, titan docking and other functions are useless.


I like that. Maybe start at 3 days and have rigs/modules to decrease time. Although it would be a niche rig/module.


So uhh do I just not play for three days until I'm revived or what? Can I just jump back in after three days (I can already think of ways to break this)



I assume that if you die inside the timer you end up somewhere, maybe Jita?

I would like to change the original idea so that if you die in the constellation, you revive at the citadel. Or, if your friends bring your corpse back to the citadel it can revive you if you already have a clone there (this may need balance considerations... corpse freighters).

I also think a week would be better than 3 days.

That way if your citadel gets attacked you'll be able to jump back in at most once before it either goes into armor reinforced (and the clone bay shuts off) or the attackers are repelled.

The timer could be modified to two weeks as well.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
The Initiative.
#244 - 2016-04-20 23:57:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I'm going to unpin the other structures threads and link them all here as we are running out of space in this forum subsection.

You may find the threads there:



If you have items in an POS that was captured by another alliance, when the removal of Outposts begins, will your items be moved to an NPC station in Low-Sec, or will they be moved elsewhere?
Tau Rollard
Dynamic Security Solutions
#245 - 2016-04-21 01:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Rollard
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Edwin Zavut wrote:
I think Clone Vat Bay of wormhole system's citadel should allow to revive after death in SAME system.


problem with this is it then becomes very very hard to evict anyone from the WH as they will have superior firepower when it comes to capitals and they can just keep spawning while your guys have to keep getting back in. the clone swapping mechanic is more than enough


Thats true. So wormhole revival should be limited by time - for example, one day of delay before next one. That is awesome to overcome random death (drifters...), but not a massive advantage of defenders.
Looks like its the only reason for wh citadel, because trade, titan docking and other functions are useless.


I like that. Maybe start at 3 days and have rigs/modules to decrease time. Although it would be a niche rig/module.


So uhh do I just not play for three days until I'm revived or what? Can I just jump back in after three days (I can already think of ways to break this)



this game is supposed to be hard. if you are adding a new mechanic, ADD IT, dont just run around it to avoid angering the grim darks. i really like the longer timer idea

meta it by saying the charge to send it out so far takes longer. and yeah you HAVE to wait the time etc. it is a price we are willing to pay for the amount of time and effort we put into living out in the black.

make it a special kind of jump clone bay that has to be numbered, only a certain amount of jump clones in a specific citadel in wh space
Glendalee
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
#246 - 2016-04-22 01:32:14 UTC
I just read this saying that the cost of the BPO's for the citadels took a huge jump. The costs are now: 6B, 70b, and 1200b respectively. Is that true?

http://i.imgur.com/ysVsc23.png

Thanks,

Glendalee
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#247 - 2016-04-22 11:01:00 UTC
Glendalee wrote:
I just read this saying that the cost of the BPO's for the citadels took a huge jump. The costs are now: 6B, 70b, and 1200b respectively. Is that true?

http://i.imgur.com/ysVsc23.png

Thanks,

Glendalee


The last, that for the Keepstar, has gone up - just as the price for the base hull it builds has also gone up - the other two have remained the same.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Crashys
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#248 - 2016-04-22 13:48:01 UTC
Question: What will happen to the existing Outposts??
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2016-04-22 14:30:32 UTC
Crashys wrote:
Question: What will happen to the existing Outposts??


One day, in the not yet defined future, it has been suggested that Stations in Conquerable Null (ie the Outposts that were/are player deployed) will become destructible - or could simply be removed.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Crashys
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#250 - 2016-04-22 14:33:41 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Crashys wrote:
Question: What will happen to the existing Outposts??


One day, in the not yet defined future, it has been suggested that Stations in Conquerable Null (ie the Outposts that were/are player deployed) will become destructible - or could simply be removed.


So this mean that all the costs done to produce those assets is removed from the game?? Strange call... but i guess it's like that.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2016-04-22 14:54:26 UTC
Crashys wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Crashys wrote:
Question: What will happen to the existing Outposts??


One day, in the not yet defined future, it has been suggested that Stations in Conquerable Null (ie the Outposts that were/are player deployed) will become destructible - or could simply be removed.


So this mean that all the costs done to produce those assets is removed from the game?? Strange call... but i guess it's like that.


Well - when I say 'removed' - that doesn't mean that CCP might not do some sort of refund like they are planning with POS. They could, potentially, try a repalcement - but that would be tricky given the lack of one-to-one comparability.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Lugh Crow-Slave
#252 - 2016-04-23 14:25:21 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Glendalee wrote:
I just read this saying that the cost of the BPO's for the citadels took a huge jump. The costs are now: 6B, 70b, and 1200b respectively. Is that true?

http://i.imgur.com/ysVsc23.png

Thanks,

Glendalee


The last, that for the Keepstar, has gone up - just as the price for the base hull it builds has also gone up - the other two have remained the same.



Yes the only one that has gone up is the keep

The rest look like they have gone up do to the market reacting to them. Everyone is buying the build mats up and few ppl are selling prices should normalize in less than a month after release
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#253 - 2016-04-23 14:46:46 UTC
I was just watching the Twitch feed for 'Structures' at Fanfest and one of the questions asked afterwards came close to what I would like to know but not quite.

The Assembly structure and Drilling Platform structures seem to come close to what needs to be replaced under the current system running but neither appear to do the current job and/or will be likely prohibitively expensive.

Currently the average miner operating in high sec system will use a small POS tower along with and reprocessing array and/or a compression array. I haven't played EVE for a while for various reasons but the outlay for the tower and arrays used to be about 100 million ISK roughly. I expect it is still roughly that amount or not that much more. The cost could arguably be less if constructed by the user themselves. Smile

It appears like the nearest structure available to replace this option post all the changes and removal of POSEs would be the medium sized citadel which is sort of like cracking a walnut open with a cruise missile warhead.

Therefore can CCP tell me/us what ideas you have for miners doing compression and reprocessing of ore in high sec space post the changes. Emphasis would probably be more on compression in high sec as there are other options for reprocessing in high sec.

* My years subscription is about to end and will not be renewed as well as my other accounts due to not liking most of the recently announced changes. Too many to list here. But I will still be 'observing' from the 'outside' and if things improve or become more attractive I will return to playing EVE. Nevertheless I am still interested in hearing news on the future of ore compression in high sec space. * Fly safe o7. Smile
Lugh Crow-Slave
#254 - 2016-04-23 16:13:09 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
I was just watching the Twitch feed for 'Structures' at Fanfest and one of the questions asked afterwards came close to what I would like to know but not quite.

The Assembly structure and Drilling Platform structures seem to come close to what needs to be replaced under the current system running but neither appear to do the current job and/or will be likely prohibitively expensive.

Currently the average miner operating in high sec system will use a small POS tower along with and reprocessing array and/or a compression array. I haven't played EVE for a while for various reasons but the outlay for the tower and arrays used to be about 100 million ISK roughly. I expect it is still roughly that amount or not that much more. The cost could arguably be less if constructed by the user themselves. Smile

It appears like the nearest structure available to replace this option post all the changes and removal of POSEs would be the medium sized citadel which is sort of like cracking a walnut open with a cruise missile warhead.

Therefore can CCP tell me/us what ideas you have for miners doing compression and reprocessing of ore in high sec space post the changes. Emphasis would probably be more on compression in high sec as there are other options for reprocessing in high sec.

* My years subscription is about to end and will not be renewed as well as my other accounts due to not liking most of the recently announced changes. Too many to list here. But I will still be 'observing' from the 'outside' and if things improve or become more attractive I will return to playing EVE. Nevertheless I am still interested in hearing news on the future of ore compression in high sec space. * Fly safe o7. Smile



How does the drilling platform (you know the one that can refine better than a citadel) not fulfill your need a citadel gets 54%refine in hs that is 2%more than now and this is less than what the drilling platform gets you. The drilling platforms will also be cheaper than citadels. How did you watch the presentation and not pick up on any of this?
Jack Roulette
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2016-04-23 18:21:59 UTC
Quick question regarding Citadels and anchoring.

On the Eve Uni Wiki, it says that during the anchoring stage "[Citadels] do not appear on directional-scan while anchoring and not on the overview, unless you're on grid." and that "Combat probes don't work."

Can a dev please confirm this as true or false?

Here's the problem scenario:
If you jump into a wormhole with a Viator (or other cloaky haulers) which is able to carry a medium citadel, you can then warp to a random spot in space, begin anchoring a citadel, and then cloak up. Since the anchoring citadel is invisible to d-scan, overview, and combat probes, it is essentially impossible for any players already occupying the hole to find it and prevent the anchoring from completing - which also makes the 24 hour timer kind of pointless. Since the ship doing the anchoring is cov-ops, there is a very small window of time to find it. If you do this with 2 citadels at the same time, and give them non-overlapping vulnerability timers (that's the difference between this and doing the same with POSes), it is possible to establish a "beachhead" in a wormhole that is essentially impossible to remove. Only one citadel would ever be vulnerable at a time, and it's virtually impossible to stop new ones being anchored and defended given that they don't need fuel for basic functions.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#256 - 2016-04-23 22:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
I am redoing my earlier damage critique post with the new stats on missiles and bombs.

Again, these are all with level 4 in all structure skills in a Fortizar citadel in highsecm on SiSi. The station has 2 ballistic control systems and 2 guidance enhancers.

Subcap Missiles

Anti-small: 144.4dps per launcher.

The damage from these getting a buff is nice to see, but the application concerns me. They have an explosion radius of 100m and velocity of 200 m/s. Presumably, these are intended for destroying frigates and destroyers, which are both easily capable of having a significantly smaller signature radius and a significantly higher speed than the missiles can apply to.

Against cruisers, they shouldn't have much difficulty applying the damage, but ~450dps against cruisers is lackluster for a military station, especially since it only takes a couple of T1 cruisers to put out more DPS and a bit of logi to outrep it.


Anti-medium: 481.5 dps per launcher.

Again, damage buff is nice to see, and it's nice that it seems to have gone the route I suggested with increasing firing rate instead of burst damage. Application seems to be okay too against cruisers and up. Despite this, a total of around ~1440 DPS with 3 launchers, while far better than before, is easily countered with just a bit of logi, and easily outshined by 3-5 T1 cruisers.

For a military station as costly as a Fortizar, that is simply too weak. It leaves it not only possible, but easy, to take on a fortizar without any casualties.


Anti-Large: 963 dps per launcher.

DPS from a single launcher is a bit higher than a T1 battleship, but that just means that it only takes 4 T1 battleships to out-DPS the Citadel. Total DPS from 3 launchers is ~2889dps, which can be outrepped by just 2 logi cruisers. Once more, against an actual fleet, the Fortizar would be incapable of even inflicting any casualties, never mind fighting them off.

═☼═☼═☼═☼═☼═

Increasing firing rate as a good step in the right direction, but they still need to be stronger. I still think that they should serve more as a c onstant stream of DPS than burst damage, and said constant stream needs to be able to break through logi, otherwise the Citadel can't even kill a single ship in an attacking fleet.




Bombs:

Anti-Small: 1200 burst, 60 dps

This is just silly. it's such a tiny amount of damage, T1 frigates can tank it with no difficulty and be repped up without a second thought, Never mind that the 100m explosion radius application means that its damage will be reduced by the fact that frigates are smaller than that. it's just a negligible amount of damage.

The firing rate of bombs should be majorly reduced, and the damage should be huge. Seeing a bomb launched from the Citadel should be a major "oh ****" moment. It shouldn't be enough to burst things off the field, but it should be enough to cause a big chunk of damage that would make the logi scramble to heal everyone that was affected. Perhaps even have it cause enough damage to clear the ship's main layer and bleed a little bit into the next, depending on the fit.


Anti-Medium: 4000 burst, 200 dps

Again, this is silly. 4000 burst damage every 20 seconds is insignificant to even a T1 cruiser. it's less than 10% of its HP, and just gets more and more useless as the attacker's ship size goes up.

As said with the smaller bomb, seeing a bomb launch should be a source of fear for the attacking fleet. It should have a harrowing effect, the attacking FC should be keeping track of how much longer until the next bomb launches so they can maneuver. It should drive the enemy fleet to reconsider blobbing so that they don't all get caught in the blast. It should cause a major amount of damage that makes the logi panic and scramble to get everyone repped up before the next one hits.

═☼═☼═☼═☼═☼═

As with the first critique, I think bombs should be for a huge amount of burst damage but have very low DPS due to reload. It should be near impossible to attack a Citadel with zero casualties, even if you win the fight. With how the Citadels damage output is, you end up not being able to kill anyone when there's logi on the field.

Burst damage of missiles should be low, with very high DPS. Burst damage of bombs should be exceedingly high, with very low DPS.


Maintaining that Citadel E-war needs to be AoE, including warp scrams and webs. Jamming or painting a single target doesn't mean jack when you're defending yourself against a fleet.

I won't be commenting on fighters, because I haven't had an opportunity to experiment with them.


EDIT: I would also like to add that it would be better for the Citadels to be a bit overpowered at first and nerf them, than for them to be too weak and buff them. because of the cost and effort of putting them up, it would be much more forgiving to ahve them be too difficult to kill than be too easy to kill.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2016-04-24 04:24:11 UTC
I think you fail to take your Defense Fleet into account.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#258 - 2016-04-24 06:12:28 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I think you fail to take your Defense Fleet into account.


Right now, a Citadel can't even out-DPS 4 tech1 battleships. A military emplacement should be far more powerful than 4 battleships that are a minute fraction of the cost, and are mobile.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2016-04-24 13:43:53 UTC
...and unless your Citadel DPS start ALPHAing people off the field, your argument will always be the same: logi counters "everything" according to some.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#260 - 2016-04-24 13:47:17 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I think you fail to take your Defense Fleet into account.


Right now, a Citadel can't even out-DPS 4 tech1 battleships. A military emplacement should be far more powerful than 4 battleships that are a minute fraction of the cost, and are mobile.



Why? The citadel is only supposed to be an advantage not something to fight the battle for you