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Combat Refitting
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-10-28 16:18:14 UTC
I wouldn't mind if tagging on a weapons timer at the end of activation to prevent station/gate fuckery.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#42 - 2015-10-28 16:22:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
60 seconds is enough for anything to die reduced EHP or not. If you don't want to be on the recieving end of a below 60 second kill, then don't warp/jump in with a gank fit.

Sorry, some clarification; 60 seconds if enough for a dreadnought with an even-resist tank fit to die in a small gang capital engagement, before he can switch hardeners. Not even gank-fit. He certainly can't active-tank it.

Rosal Milag wrote:
No capital or sub cap force that is capable of destroying a balanced fit capital in under 60 seconds 'appears' out of nowhere.
Right, I forgot people don't use cynos at all.
Trisska Ksajkowa
Bean-shidh
The Nameless Alliance
#43 - 2015-10-28 16:36:35 UTC
When your Capital / T3 / Unicorn will last 60 seconds (weapons timer is dropped) you can unfit lets say all 14 modules in seconds and fit 14 completely other guns/resists/ewar... that is silly and unbalanced Roll

Let pilots in any class of ship use fitting service for one module every 20 seconds in battle (we can exclude guns because of weapons timer).

If you are engaged in battle you will be able to fit one module every 20 seconds, we just need one more timer in top left corner of our screens for that Blink

That will not completely kill "battle refitting tactics", and it will not give too much advantage to them, you can still make mistake of fitting wrong module and losing 20 seconds of precious refitting timer.

Just an idea
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-10-28 16:38:18 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
60 seconds is enough for anything to die reduced EHP or not. If you don't want to be on the recieving end of a below 60 second kill, then don't warp/jump in with a gank fit.

Sorry, some clarification; 60 seconds if enough for a dreadnought with an even-resist tank fit to die in a small gang capital engagement, before he can switch hardeners. Not even gank-fit. He certainly can't active-tank it.

Rosal Milag wrote:
No capital or sub cap force that is capable of destroying a balanced fit capital in under 60 seconds 'appears' out of nowhere.
Right, I forgot people don't use cynos at all.


And cyno inhibitors are totally not a thing either. Leave your backdoor unlocked, don't be surprised when someone walks through it.

"Small gang capital engagement"
If both sides are fielding capitals, its no longer a small gang. And if your lone dread is being jumped by this "small gang", it should die.

Point of order, when two capital groups clash, ships should die within seconds of locking each other. This prevents long, drawn out fights where ships are lasting ten times longer and gives time for escalations that end with n+1.

Show me an example where a large capital group, with the upcoming changes, isn't going to result in the same n+1 gameplay by being able to refit at will. This isn't about one dread or small gangs. Stop trying to push that direction. This is about 100+ capital fleets creating a no win scenario. Focus on the game, on the universe, and what happens if the status quo is maintained.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#45 - 2015-10-28 19:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Rosal Milag wrote:
And cyno inhibitors are totally not a thing either.
If they're bringing ships to light cynos, they have subcaps on grid that can destroy that cyno inhibitor. Already done that.

Quote:
"Small gang capital engagement"
If both sides are fielding capitals, its no longer a small gang. And if your lone dread is being jumped by this "small gang", it should die.
In wormhole space, almost everything outside of a C6 eviction is a small-gang capital fight because you can't bring more than one or two capitals into a fight. When I say small-gang capitals, I'm ignoring subcapitals. Hopefully that'll change when EHP is cut, but when capitals are on-field subcapitals (besides Bhaalgorns) can't do much.

And if my lone dread is jumped by a small-gang, then it will certainly die, and combat refitting won't change that. If he tries, the small gang will blow up his mobile depot and he can't refit anyway. He might come in with a full-tank fit and survive a little while, but that's because he already had that full-tank fit on and removing combat refitting won't change that.

Quote:
Point of order, when two capital groups clash, ships should die within seconds of locking each other. This prevents long, drawn out fights where ships are lasting ten times longer and gives time for escalations that end with n+1.
Without combat refitting, capital fights will already be n+1, because they will make sure they bring enough capitals to crush their opponents, since numbers are the only way they can be sure of a victory.

Quote:
Show me an example where a large capital group, with the upcoming changes, isn't going to result in the same n+1 gameplay by being able to refit at will.
Show me an example where a large capital group has ever benefited from combat refitting? When there are 10+ capitals to a single side, combat refitting doesn't change anything because the amount of incoming DPS overwhelms full-tank fits. The only thing I can think of are super-capitals switching to neuts to ward off heavy interdictors before trying to extract from a large fleet fight, and that isn't going to change since the fleet will make sure super-capitals will come into the fight with them if they can't combat refit.

Quote:
This isn't about one dread or small gangs. Stop trying to push that direction. This is about 100+ capital fleets creating a no win scenario.
Once again, wormhole space. Smaller entities in certain regions in low-sec could also work since it might not be worth herding those 100+ drunken cats.

EHP is getting cut, doomsdays are anti-capital, area-of-effect, EWar immunity is gone, slowcats don't exist anymore. That is going to make a huge splash and likely prevent those 100+ capital fleets. If it isn't enough, and combat refitting does turn out to be a problem under the new system, then it can be removed later, and I would 100% agree with it.

Under the new system, without combat refitting, is there ever going to be a case where someone can say "we will win this because we are better capital pilots than they are?"
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-10-28 20:51:53 UTC
Quote:
If they're bringing ships to light cynos, they have subcaps on grid that can destroy that cyno inhibitor. Already done that.


If you have logistics on the field and your cyno inhibitor is being focused, it is a critical failure of your logistics if they don't warn that the inhibitor is about to fall. These things aren't easily killed when actively repped by triage carriers.

Quote:
In wormhole space, almost everything outside of a C6 eviction is a small-gang capital fight because you can't bring more than one or two capitals into a fight. When I say small-gang capitals, I'm ignoring subcapitals. Hopefully that'll change when EHP is cut, but when capitals are on-field subcapitals (besides Bhaalgorns) can't do much.


Aside from neuting, pointing, bumping, bubbling, killing and jamming non triaged carriers. Legions are iirc still used for neut pressure in WH space, the dps of a large battleship gang (50+) is not a joke and is still a real threat to capitals, interceptors/dictors/HIC all keep capitals on grid with ceptors or so in low sec.

Quote:
Without combat refitting, capital fights will already be n+1, because they will make sure they bring enough capitals to crush their opponents, since numbers are the only way they can be sure of a victory.


How does combat refitting help in this scenario? It encourages more ships to come as the capital force can increase their EHP by a significant amount. Without refitting, a small group can jump in, bloody some noses but be wiped out by superior forces. Under the current meta, if you try that with a small group against CFC or PL, you don't get a single kill.

Quote:
Show me an example where a large capital group has ever benefited from combat refitting? When there are 10+ capitals to a single side, combat refitting doesn't change anything because the amount of incoming DPS overwhelms full-tank fits. The only thing I can think of are super-capitals switching to neuts to ward off heavy interdictors before trying to extract from a large fleet fight, and that isn't going to change since the fleet will make sure super-capitals will come into the fight with them if they can't combat refit.

The whole argument about refitting is based on high numbers of capitals. In BR-5B, people were swapping overheated hardeners out for fresh ones, titans were being refitted in "seconds" as far as server time went. A titan is a perfect example of why combat refitting should go. A quick kill of a titan requires massed doomsday and alpha. Unfortunately titans and dreads don't lock in mere seconds. Which means a titan pilot has substantial warning to refit and increase his HP.

An Erebus without links, because I didn't have a way to simulate this on my phone, has around 7 million EHP with a full High Grade Slave set and 3 trimark T2 rigs.
1 million EHP shield
5 mil EHP armor
1 mil EHP structure

Now, he is a good capital pilot and a wealthy one, so he has tons of expensive modules. He is also able to swap out all his slots for tank in seconds. If he can refit before his titan gets shot, while still shooting himself, the following are the increases he can do.

DC T2, 3 Pith A adaptive, Pith X EM, Pith X Kin, Pith X therm, all overheated.
13 million EHP in shield alone, double that of his base EHP.

Now his shields are getting low, better swap to armor tank or while they eat his now 10 times bigger shield buffer.
2 X type explosive, X type Kin, X type therm, 2 A type EANM, overheated of course
49.19 million EHP in armor. 7 times his base EHP

Uh-oh, getting rough now, he's almost out of armor. Better refit to structure tank, while shooting himself, as a reminder.
DC 2, 6 T2 bulkheads
7.5m EHP in structure.

With perfect timing, an Erebus, WITHOUT LINKS can fit 70 Million EHP worth of tank. If he had to worry about a combat timer, he would have to have stopped shooting a full minute before doing this dance. This is all without remote reps mind you. And at 90% resists or higher. Are you okay with a titan going from 7 million EHP to 70 million in seconds while he is shooting other ships? And keep in mind, this can be applied to all the titans in the fleet, Bob knows the CFC could finance the modules/implants for all their titan pilots.

And this scenario, swapping from shield to armor to structure tanking happens whenever a titan is primaried, regardless of who is flying it. There is such a buffer, time and tank, for him to refit that its not really worthwhile to drop with a tank fit unless you are headed into another BR-5B. To be clear, the capital pilot is just being an F1 monkey until he is yellow boxed, swaps mods and keeps fighting.

Quote:
]Once again, wormhole space. Smaller entities in certain regions in low-sec could also work since it might not be worth herding those 100+ drunken cats.

EHP is getting cut, doomsdays are anti-capital, area-of-effect, EWar immunity is gone, slowcats don't exist anymore. That is going to make a huge splash and likely prevent those 100+ capital fleets. If it isn't enough, and combat refitting does turn out to be a problem under the new system, then it can be removed later, and I would 100% agree with it.

Under the new system, without combat refitting, is there ever going to be a case where someone can say "we will win this because we are better capital pilots than they are?"


Once again, wormhole space isn't the reason for these changes. I'm sorry but its never been said that wormholes have a n+1 problem or that fights are stagnating. I understand that the changes will impact wormhole space harder than null/lowsec. That happens with a lot of the cap changes, simply because you don't see the numbers where this causes such an effect.

Removing combat refitting makes capital pilots think about the next minute instead of following the FC to the bitter end. It takes more skill to think and not just react.
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#47 - 2015-10-29 04:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Athraws
Rosal Milag wrote:


An Erebus without links, because I didn't have a way to simulate this on my phone, has around 7 million EHP with a full High Grade Slave set and 3 trimark T2 rigs.
1 million EHP shield
5 mil EHP armor
1 mil EHP structure

Now, he is a good capital pilot and a wealthy one, so he has tons of expensive modules. He is also able to swap out all his slots for tank in seconds. If he can refit before his titan gets shot, while still shooting himself, the following are the increases he can do.

DC T2, 3 Pith A adaptive, Pith X EM, Pith X Kin, Pith X therm, all overheated.
13 million EHP in shield alone, double that of his base EHP.

Now his shields are getting low, better swap to armor tank or while they eat his now 10 times bigger shield buffer.
2 X type explosive, X type Kin, X type therm, 2 A type EANM, overheated of course
49.19 million EHP in armor. 7 times his base EHP

Uh-oh, getting rough now, he's almost out of armor. Better refit to structure tank, while shooting himself, as a reminder.
DC 2, 6 T2 bulkheads
7.5m EHP in structure.

With perfect timing, an Erebus, WITHOUT LINKS can fit 70 Million EHP worth of tank. If he had to worry about a combat timer, he would have to have stopped shooting a full minute before doing this dance. This is all without remote reps mind you. And at 90% resists or higher. Are you okay with a titan going from 7 million EHP to 70 million in seconds while he is shooting other ships? And keep in mind, this can be applied to all the titans in the fleet, Bob knows the CFC could finance the modules/implants for all their titan pilots.

And this scenario, swapping from shield to armor to structure tanking happens whenever a titan is primaried, regardless of who is flying it. There is such a buffer, time and tank, for him to refit that its not really worthwhile to drop with a tank fit unless you are headed into another BR-5B. To be clear, the capital pilot is just being an F1 monkey until he is yellow boxed, swaps mods and keeps fighting.


Unfortunately you wasted your time doing any of this math.
Since CCP has already stated they will be reducing capital and super EHP, it remains to be seen how viable the sort of refitting you describe, and is currently commonplace, will actually be.

If the EHP numbers are leveled out anywhere close to what was implied, the severity of the issue will be drastically reduced virtue of overall EHP reductions. And before someone mentions the new Capital passive tank mods, remember how large current capital modules are. Presuming dreads, carriers, and FAX's will all have the carrier's 10k hangar, they will be able to store up to 1, MAYBE 2 capital module(s) to refit (assuming they will not be replacing any currently fitted capital mods).

Supers are another problem entirely, since their bays are 50k and 100k, enough for significant capital mod refits, and their higher raw EHP (even post nerf, probably) magnifies the refitting issue.
The power of combat-refitting will still be reduced, though, since even assuming fitting a capital plate or two returns their raw armor, for example, to pre-nerf levels, that's still 2 other modules, likely hardeners, the ship cannot fit.

Compouding this, remember that the proposed change to EWAR immunity (a 50% resistance, lets say) would also affect incoming repairs.


Meaning IN ADDITION to any EHP changes, and IN ADDITION to capital reps being functionally restricted to the combat-incapable FAX's, any incoming repairs will be HALVED.


However, I believe it only makes sense to postpone final judgment and arguments until the true numbers have been revealed.
To do so now is to base our arguments on erroneous data.
Sigras
Conglomo
#48 - 2015-10-29 09:53:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
60 seconds is long enough to die in a capital fight, especially after they reduce their EHP.

60 seconds is enough for anything to die reduced EHP or not. If you don't want to be on the recieving end of a below 60 second kill, then don't warp/jump in with a gank fit.

It might be 300 seconds....just sayin'

@Rosal Milag: Supers and DPS carriers are a different ballgame because they can all receive reps. Dreads cannot whilst doing anything appreciably related to their role.

You think people will be happy stuck in siege for a full 5 minutes whilst being unable to refit at all? I do not.

1. They said that they're looking at the siege weapon timer so you can refit after 60 seconds
2. They said that they're considering allowing dreads to receive RR while in siege.
Sigras
Conglomo
#49 - 2015-10-29 09:56:15 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
With the upcoming new capital-sized modules, also, planning and fitting beforehand is still very important because you can only store at most two of them in your cargo hold/fleet hangar. You won't be able to hot-swap more than one capital-sized module on your fit. There is also fleet composition and where to drop the capitals that is important. Also intel as to whether or not they'll drop more than you can handle is still really important.

I dont think you understand what they meant by "capital sized modules"

Cap ships are still going to use the regular damage mods/hardeners/Cap Power Relays/Damage Controls

The addition of capital sized modules in no way reduces the effectiveness of combat refitting.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-10-29 10:01:04 UTC
Sigras wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
60 seconds is long enough to die in a capital fight, especially after they reduce their EHP.

60 seconds is enough for anything to die reduced EHP or not. If you don't want to be on the recieving end of a below 60 second kill, then don't warp/jump in with a gank fit.

It might be 300 seconds....just sayin'

@Rosal Milag: Supers and DPS carriers are a different ballgame because they can all receive reps. Dreads cannot whilst doing anything appreciably related to their role.

You think people will be happy stuck in siege for a full 5 minutes whilst being unable to refit at all? I do not.

1. They said that they're looking at the siege weapon timer so you can refit after 60 seconds
2. They said that they're considering allowing dreads to receive RR while in siege.



I knew point 1, but where did point 2 happen? I missed that, I've been trying to pay attention to it all but missed that.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#51 - 2015-10-29 11:15:09 UTC
The point of the upcoming stuff is to ensure that capital ships (all of them) explode if they enter combat at a much higher rate.


The problem isn't in the details ladies, it's in coming to terms with the glorious new era in eve where there is no apex fleet. Losses will be had.... lots of losses. This nitpicking over what may or may not happen because of this or that detail cracks me up. Bigcapitalshit's gonna explode!
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#52 - 2015-10-30 02:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Sigras wrote:
Cap ships are still going to use the regular damage mods/hardeners/Cap Power Relays/Damage Controls

The addition of capital sized modules in no way reduces the effectiveness of combat refitting.
Yeah, but capital-sized batteries, cap boosters, shield extenders, plates, neuts and points limit what you're going to be able to refit. If you have any of those mid-slot modules, for example, that's one less mid-slot you can hot-swap for other modules.

My point is, though, they should leave combat refitting alone for the time being, while we see how the other changes affect things. Not because it makes things too squishy (as I said, I like when capitals blow up), but because capitals are horribly boring and non-interactive otherwise. I have no problem if it's removed later after it shakes out; it'd be a shame, but if it's broken in the new climate, then it's broken.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-10-30 14:10:08 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Cap ships are still going to use the regular damage mods/hardeners/Cap Power Relays/Damage Controls

The addition of capital sized modules in no way reduces the effectiveness of combat refitting.
Yeah, but capital-sized batteries, cap boosters, shield extenders, plates, neuts and points limit what you're going to be able to refit. If you have any of those mid-slot modules, for example, that's one less mid-slot you can hot-swap for other modules.

My point is, though, they should leave combat refitting alone for the time being, while we see how the other changes affect things. Not because it makes things too squishy (as I said, I like when capitals blow up), but because capitals are horribly boring and non-interactive otherwise. I have no problem if it's removed later after it shakes out; it'd be a shame, but if it's broken in the new climate, then it's broken.



Considering that some capitals are already able to perform high level play with non capital sized modules, the introduction of capital sized boosters, plates etc, is not going discourage the same shenanigans with bulk heads, resistance modules, and warp cores.

Have you considered that it is combat refitting that is making capital play boring and non-interactive? Oh look, a capital group dropped, lets do our refitting dance and make the fight last ten times longer than it would have otherwise.

The inability to combat refit increases the tempo of the fight, as ships are more likely to explode. And more explosions means a shorter fight with more kills.

Show me a fight were combat refitting increased the enjoyment of both sides. Show me a fight where combat refitting made a fight shorter.

If your whole argument is that combat refitting is a critical element in wormhole life, then turn the debate sideways. Why not propose WH effects and make combat refitting work in wormholes only? This means that the null blocs with their 100+ fleets can't drag fights on forever while the WH folks still get the swiss army knife approach their gameplay has evolved to. WH have different rules than k-space anyways, why not add one more?
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