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Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
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Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#321 - 2015-10-26 11:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
All newbies need to win are bigger, more expensive ships!
https://www.themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow?nopaging=1


...oh damn..

Edit: I forgot "grr goons." For anyone who refuses to give them traffic, it's basically the story of a 44 bil navy raven (funded entirely through PLEX) lost to a suicide gank by a newbie. Obviously goon scammers caught wind of him and scammed another 60 bil out of the guy. As is par for course, he blames the game, threatens the killers with RL repercussions, believes CCP will get his stuff back for him, and presumably ended up quitting the game as he said he would.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2015-10-26 11:27:56 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dror wrote:
Feel free to post something constructive.

You first.

By this point, there is no reason to add anymore constructive posts. They seem to be ignored, misunderstood or disregarded on the basis of a lack of understanding about what Eve is. So, it's just a pointless waste of energy to try.



Pretty much this. I gave up because the OP doesn't actually put forth anything that can be defended. All he does is post nonsense that seems more and more troll bait, which is probably his goal in the first place. Well done sir.

At this point the most constructive response would be "Purple monkey dishwasher". That makes about as much sense as what the OP is posting.



I'm mostly talking to him at this point for amusement's sake. I keep going back and forth on whether or not he's an actual troll. Looking at his participation in other threads shows a single-mindedness that may go beyond that, so I just don't know.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2015-10-26 11:29:29 UTC
Thierry Orlenard wrote:
Dror wrote:
That's a deflection.


Oh, you little scamp, you. I take this round.

"I win because I refuse to address a topic."

The questions are still relevant, btw.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2015-10-26 11:33:49 UTC
Thierry Orlenard wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dror wrote:
Feel free to post something constructive.

You first.

By this point, there is no reason to add anymore constructive posts. They seem to be ignored, misunderstood or disregarded on the basis of a lack of understanding about what Eve is. So, it's just a pointless waste of energy to try.



Pretty much this. I gave up because the OP doesn't actually put forth anything that can be defended. All he does is post nonsense that seems more and more troll bait, which is probably his goal in the first place. Well done sir.

At this point the most constructive response would be "Purple monkey dishwasher". That makes about as much sense as what the OP is posting.



I'm mostly talking to him at this point for amusement's sake. I keep going back and forth on whether or not he's an actual troll. Looking at his participation in other threads shows a single-mindedness that may go beyond that, so I just don't know.



It is a tough one isn't it. I am still not sure if it's a troll or just really really easily "confused".
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2015-10-26 11:54:48 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
It is a tough one isn't it. I am still not sure if it's a troll or just really really easily "confused".


Gotta hand it to him for keeping it on topic. Seems like these sort of threads usually devolve into a ganker vs carebear type of thing. This guy has kept the sights set on amusing nonsense and not deviated. Hats off on that, I guess.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2015-10-26 12:02:10 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
It is a tough one isn't it. I am still not sure if it's a troll or just really really easily "confused".


Gotta hand it to him for keeping it on topic. Seems like these sort of threads usually devolve into a ganker vs carebear type of thing. This guy has kept the sights set on amusing nonsense and not deviated. Hats off on that, I guess.


That is a good point, I suppose at least it is different.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#327 - 2015-10-26 12:10:18 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
It is a tough one isn't it. I am still not sure if it's a troll or just really really easily "confused".


Gotta hand it to him for keeping it on topic. Seems like these sort of threads usually devolve into a ganker vs carebear type of thing. This guy has kept the sights set on amusing nonsense and not deviated. Hats off on that, I guess.


That is a good point, I suppose at least it is different.


He is like a 12-layer taco dip... no matter which flavor we peel back, he seems to make sure our nacho chips are still being dipped in.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2015-10-26 12:15:21 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Gotta hand it to him for keeping it on topic. Seems like these sort of threads usually devolve into a ganker vs carebear type of thing. This guy has kept the sights set on amusing nonsense and not deviated. Hats off on that, I guess.

The point is that everything (research) that comes up -- about game success -- discusses equal, fair opportunity (the greatness of freedom and intrinsic motivation) and feeling competitive (increasing game loyalty like subs and referrals).

About reducing a toolset decreasing engagement, it's obvious that a lack of content is a major deterrent for subscription MMOs. Especially with the popularity of liveplay, reviews, and videos, major characters saying that there are no encounters would seem a problem. How much is that reinforced where fresh subs find neither B-R nor the potential to develop that..

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2015-10-26 13:40:33 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
It is a tough one isn't it. I am still not sure if it's a troll or just really really easily "confused".


Gotta hand it to him for keeping it on topic. Seems like these sort of threads usually devolve into a ganker vs carebear type of thing. This guy has kept the sights set on amusing nonsense and not deviated. Hats off on that, I guess.


That is a good point, I suppose at least it is different.


He is like a 12-layer taco dip... no matter which flavor we peel back, he seems to make sure our nacho chips are still being dipped in.


That is an unusual yet compelling analogy.

I would go with the plural of 'non sequitur' is not 'compelling argument'.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#330 - 2015-10-26 15:12:51 UTC
Dror wrote:
Rep and sec status could be account-based (the same answer as about the original question..

Mind relaying how you imagine EVE to be more like a themepark game if subs can actually play the sandbox how they would.. without an arbitrary gate?


So again you want to change the fundamental mechanics of what's made this gmae successful for over a decade? Tying reputation to an account completely ruins a large part of the social/political meta that's part of EVE.

Because actions would no longer have consequences. You could do whatever you want, biomass a character and start over. That's a themepark. The current SP system doesn't prevent anything. I was living in null a month into the game. The current system promotes creativity and emergent gameplay, which is essential to a sandbox. Your ideas stifle that. Stop it. Bad Dror.

I get it sir Dror. You're upset you can't fly a cap yet and aren't creative enough to find something else to do in game. Fill out this form and return it to me ASAP, and I can help resolve this for you

http://i.imgur.com/WK73yaU.png
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#331 - 2015-10-26 15:31:17 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
I get it sir Dror. You're upset you can't fly a cap yet
If he could it'd be an ALOD waiting to happen. Without support a Cap is vulnerable, in the hands of somebody who hasn't got a clue it's an easy killmail.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2015-10-26 15:32:46 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
Rep and sec status could be account-based (the same answer as about the original question..

Mind relaying how you imagine EVE to be more like a themepark game if subs can actually play the sandbox how they would.. without an arbitrary gate?


So again you want to change the fundamental mechanics of what's made this gmae successful for over a decade? Tying reputation to an account completely ruins a large part of the social/political meta that's part of EVE.

Because actions would no longer have consequences. You could do whatever you want, biomass a character and start over. That's a themepark. The current SP system doesn't prevent anything. I was living in null a month into the game. The current system promotes creativity and emergent gameplay, which is essential to a sandbox. Your ideas stifle that. Stop it. Bad Dror.

I get it sir Dror. You're upset you can't fly a cap yet and aren't creative enough to find something else to do in game. Fill out this form and return it to me ASAP, and I can help resolve this for you

http://i.imgur.com/WK73yaU.png

Every source on the topic lists themepark as a design that's unaffected by player input.. but if you can evidence that the game realm would just reset ever X because you can biomass a character, I'm sure that'd be a humorous line of mental gymnastics.

So, reducing options and effectiveness reduces engagement profiles, yeah? So, fewer fights are taken because of an unfair field? Well, it seems that loss aversion would affect newbies as well -- then, how would they be interested in the game? Furthermore, how would they be interested in the game unless they could try multiple niches? Thus, how can there be creativity with such limited engagement windows? So, SP is what stifles fluidity from newbie through veteran and apparently much inbetween.

Great chat.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#333 - 2015-10-26 15:39:40 UTC
Dror wrote:
Every source on the topic lists themepark as a design that's unaffected by player input.. but if you can evidence that the game realm would just reset ever X because you can biomass a character, I'm sure that'd be a humorous line of mental gymnastics.

So, reducing options and effectiveness reduces engagement profiles, yeah? So, fewer fights are taken because of an unfair field? Well, it seems that loss aversion would affect newbies as well -- then, how would they be interested in the game? Furthermore, how would they be interested in the game unless they could try multiple niches? Thus, how can there be creativity with such limited engagement windows? So, SP is what stifles fluidity from newbie through veteran and apparently much inbetween.

Great chat.


You can try multiple niches as it is today. Yet again, all your idea would do is drive the core playerbase out of the game and ruin the meta of long term character-based reputations. SP isn't what stifles anything. A lack of creativity and ingenuity is what stifles newbies.

If you think people wouldn't biomass to awox, scam, gank, etc, even more if they could immediately have max SP pilots, you really don't actually play this game...

nice thread Mr. "I want to change fundamental game mechanics because I'm not creative enough to think of anything to do but pilot a cap" Dror
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2015-10-26 16:01:41 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
Every source on the topic lists themepark as a design that's unaffected by player input.. but if you can evidence that the game realm would just reset ever X because you can biomass a character, I'm sure that'd be a humorous line of mental gymnastics.

So, reducing options and effectiveness reduces engagement profiles, yeah? So, fewer fights are taken because of an unfair field? Well, it seems that loss aversion would affect newbies as well -- then, how would they be interested in the game? Furthermore, how would they be interested in the game unless they could try multiple niches? Thus, how can there be creativity with such limited engagement windows? So, SP is what stifles fluidity from newbie through veteran and apparently much inbetween.

Great chat.


You can try multiple niches as it is today. Yet again, all your idea would do is drive the core playerbase out of the game and ruin the meta of long term character-based reputations. SP isn't what stifles anything. A lack of creativity and ingenuity is what stifles newbies.

If you think people wouldn't biomass to awox, scam, gank, etc, even more if they could immediately have max SP pilots, you really don't actually play this game...

nice thread Mr. "I want to change fundamental game mechanics because I'm not creative enough to think of anything to do but pilot a cap" Dror

Hmm? I just explained how SP limits creativity, and there's a list of creative-friendly constraints in this thread already.

Enjoy.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#335 - 2015-10-26 16:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobb Bobbington
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#336 - 2015-10-26 16:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dror wrote:
creativity
Creativity is making the most of what you have.

The SP system creates aspiration, sitting in your dream ships is the reward for the work you put in getting there; a reward earned is worth far more than something handed out to all and sundry.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2015-10-26 16:39:10 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

"SP is the whole game." Is that really worth posting, as if it refutes any of the posts on this very page?

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dror wrote:
creativity
Creativity is making the most of what you have.

As for the SP system, it creates aspiration. A reward earned is worth far more than something handed out to all and sundry.

Everything it adds only come because it originally removes them. You're literally saying that not being able to play the game to its fullest potential is helpful.

Also, that's an awful definition of creativity.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#338 - 2015-10-26 16:43:22 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

"SP is the whole game." Is that really worth posting, as if it refutes any of the posts on this very page?


Not just SP, but all of the difficulties in Eve. SP is only one of them, but a very needed one of them. And yes, it is worth posting, because evidently you can't accept the fact that the challenge is the fun part.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2015-10-26 16:51:41 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

"SP is the whole game." Is that really worth posting, as if it refutes any of the posts on this very page?


Not just SP, but all of the difficulties in Eve. SP is only one of them, but a very needed one of them. And yes, it is worth posting, because evidently you can't accept the fact that the challenge is the fun part.

Now it's that setting a queue is challenging. The standards!

What do you have to lose from gaining x00M SP, per se?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#340 - 2015-10-26 17:04:48 UTC
Dror wrote:
Hmm? I just explained how SP limits creativity, and there's a list of creative-friendly constraints in this thread already.Enjoy.


Dror, that just proves you aren't creative at all, and think the only content in game is what you can find in a 30 second google search.

Thanks for proving my point though