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[December] Navy EWar Frigates

First post
Author
Mario Putzo
#41 - 2015-10-16 18:06:27 UTC
*looks at vigil*

haha

Kinetic bonus for missiles is unique and interesting...here have a 25% Explosive bonus AND a 20% bonus for each other damage type lol.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#42 - 2015-10-16 18:07:41 UTC
griffin with damage bonus WTF

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-10-16 18:09:41 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
afkalt wrote:
The ecm range is stupid and so is that Maulus - has the garmur taught you nothing?

Sigh.


What's stupid about the range? It can't project ECM very well past... what, 15km? Sad


Exactly, it's too short.

If they're honestly giving the vigil a freaking web range bonus AND missiles I don't even know what's going on. And don't get me started on the giant package of OP hilarity that is the Maulus.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2015-10-16 18:10:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
-85% penalty to ECM optimal range and falloff

This is the ECM nerf you should be applying to the whole range, btw.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-10-16 18:11:47 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
*looks at vigil*

haha

Kinetic bonus for missiles is unique and interesting...here have a 25% Explosive bonus AND a 20% bonus for each other damage type lol.


It's following the same change made to the Hookbill and Navy Osprey. Lets just hope he's listening, and this kind of bonus gets back-ported to some of the other missile ships with damage specific bonuses, even if slightly reduced.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-10-16 18:11:47 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Hendrink Collie wrote:
afkalt wrote:
The ecm range is stupid and so is that Maulus - has the garmur taught you nothing?

Sigh.


What's stupid about the range? It can't project ECM very well past... what, 15km? Sad


Exactly, it's too short.

If they're honestly giving the vigil a freaking web range bonus AND missiles I don't even know what's going on. And don't get me started on the giant package of OP hilarity that is the Maulus.

It's almost like they're all designed to engage at similar ranges and are bonused accordingly.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Pyralissa
Ministry of War
#47 - 2015-10-16 18:17:53 UTC
  • The role bonuses are worded poorly (they imply a double negative).

  • There's already too much projection for webs and scrams, this just reinforces the kiting/skirmish meta further.

  • That's some generous fitting on the Griffin. MASB fits could become a concern.

  • ECM.
Esnaelc Sin'led
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#48 - 2015-10-16 18:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Vigil Fleet Issue
Minmatar Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile explosion velocity
25% bonus to explosive missile damage, 20% bonus to em, thermal and kinetic missile damage
Misc Bonus:
+50% Stasis Webifier range

Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 1 Turret, 2 Launchers
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 525 / 525 / 425
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 300 / 150s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 400 / 3.2 / 1,080,000 / 5 / 4.79s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 660 / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar
Signature radius: 34


I Suggest


Quote:
Vigil Fleet Issue
Minmatar Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile explosion velocity
15% bonus to Stasis Webifier range.
Misc Bonus:
25% bonus to explosive missile damage, 20% bonus to em, thermal and kinetic missile damage.
Or whatever else bonus.

Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 1 Turret, 2 Launchers
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 525 / 525 / 425
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 300 / 150s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 400 / 3.2 / 1,080,000 / 5 / 4.79s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 660 / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar
Signature radius: 34
Nikolai Agnon
Khanid Propulsion Systems
Local Is Primary
#49 - 2015-10-16 18:22:29 UTC
Quote:
Crucifier Navy Issue
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Weapon Disruptor effectiveness
Misc Bonus:
-85% penalty to Weapon Disruptor optimal range and falloff
-50% reduction to Weapon Disruptor activation cost

Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 2 Turret
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 42 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 375 / 600 / 525
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 500 / 250s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 340 / 3.35 / 1,064,000 / 5 / 4.94s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 20
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km / 640 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38


I'm curious as to why the Navy Crucifier is so weak compared to the rest. It's the only one that looks like it will be outclassed by just about every other frigate. Why you would want the Crucifier Navy instead of the regular Crucifier? The TD cost per cycle is fairly negligible compared to the energy turret cap usage. A rails Crucifier would be more powerful than the proposed Navy variant. The 10.8km maximum range on the TD's heavily implies kiting: but it can neither force a kite, if it's AB fit (TD can't force a target closer), nor can it track anything itself if it's mwd fit, as lasers have fairly bad tracking.

Navy Maulus: Scram kiting at ~15km
Navy Vigil: Similar, scram kiting at ~15km
Navy Griffin: Brawling (blasters, rocket, 6.5km ecm range)
Navy Crucifier: ???

What role is the Navy Crucifier designed to fill, in a solo or small gang environment? Why would the Crucifier be less suited to fill the same job?

Nikolai Agnon for CSM XI!

FacWar | Lowsec | PVE | API

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-10-16 18:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These ships are designed to use their racial ewar bonuses (primary ewar for Amarr and Caldari, secondary for Gallente and Minmatar) in unusual ways

That's because the Caldari don't have a secondary EWAR bonus. And this doesn't seem to be significantly different. I don't think the Navy Griffin will realistically be able to compete against the other frigates.

The Griffin/Blackbird right now gets 15% ECM Strength per level. Increasing this to 20%/Level for the Navy Griffin, while higher than the 30%/Level the Rook/Falcon get, isn't significant. It's the same strength bonus the Kitsune gets but without the ECM optimal range bonus. But all of those ships can easily operate at range of ~40-70km in ECM falloff, as they don't have the -85% Penalty to ECM Optimal/Falloff. Most of the time you aren't operating inside of long point range even.

Forcing the Navy Griffin into brawl range with blasters is fine, but the ECM strength bonus isn't good enough to compensate for the range penalty. The ship is also the second slowest, with max speed matching the Maulus Navy, slightly less mass, but a worse align time.

Also, why even bother with the Launcher hardpoint if it has a 20%/Level bonus to Hybrid Damage? The one small unbonused drone is rather pathetic - it's the same as the Griffin. Why not just remove it, so we have less to micromanage, and give us 3 turret hardpoints? I can see this ship being the ultimate gambler - roll the dice hard, and hope we can out-DPS a non drone/missile ship while our jams hold.

Some ideas for "unusual ways" of using the ECM bonus:


  • High strength bonus to Multispectral ECM so it's actually favored to bring it rather than racial type? Would be hilarious if it was bonused for ECM Burst as well to counter drones.
  • 50% reduction to ECM module cycle duration. This way the lower ECM strength is compensated by being in optimal range (so higher jam chance), and more jam attempts.
  • Reduction in ECM Module heat damage. More time able to overload these modules to get the additional ECM bonus.


Or can we just admit ECM needs a rebalance completely anyway?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2015-10-16 18:34:43 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Hendrink Collie wrote:
afkalt wrote:
The ecm range is stupid and so is that Maulus - has the garmur taught you nothing?

Sigh.


What's stupid about the range? It can't project ECM very well past... what, 15km? Sad


Exactly, it's too short.

If they're honestly giving the vigil a freaking web range bonus AND missiles I don't even know what's going on. And don't get me started on the giant package of OP hilarity that is the Maulus.

It's almost like they're all designed to engage at similar ranges and are bonused accordingly.



If you think a 15km basic T2 web is in any way analogous to a 15km ECM range I have no idea what to tell you.
unidenify
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2015-10-16 18:37:34 UTC
what goal you hope to see with those Navy Ewar frigate?

if result is good or go as what you expect, will that bring us possible of future Navy Ewar Cruiser?
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#53 - 2015-10-16 18:42:06 UTC
Will these be allowed in novice FW plexes like all other navy/pirate frigs?
lin Quay
Motiveless Malignity
Clockwork Pineapple
#54 - 2015-10-16 18:50:08 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
man, not more recon bonuses :\

and why do I want +1 scram strength?

If you fly upon factional wars you see many with stab. Now they need more stab or they die when this ship arrive.

Is nerf to semi afk max stab pussy plexer cyka
Athryn Bellee
No Assets
#55 - 2015-10-16 18:53:28 UTC
Hahnid wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Let us know what you think!

That's what I think about the changes and ewar in general!

So why do Minnies get web range, but Amarr no neut range?
Years ago I thought of ewar something like this

T1 Ewar (use for tactical advantage):
Amarr - Tracking Disruption
Minmatar - Target Painting
Gallente - Sensor Dampening
Caldari - ECM (with no range bonus, less strength or less midslots)

T2 Ewar (use for disabling ships):
Amarr - Energy Neutralizer
Minmatar - Web (range)
Gallente - Scramble (range)
Caldari - ECM (range and strength)

Geddon has neutrange? Caldari has the Scorpion? What's with Minmatar and Gallente?
Dragoon has neutrange, too?

Does this make sense? Do you get what I try to imply? So many questions, I know Big smile


Amarr recons get lots of bonus to their nuet/nos range. So does the Sentinel.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-10-16 18:53:55 UTC
I don't see why the Crucifier Navy Issue should have the Weapon Disruption Optimal/Falloff penalty. A normal Crucifier can already brawl in scram range:

[Crucifier, Crucifier - Laser Brawler]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Energy Burst Aerator I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


I don't see a huge differentiation from the regular Crucifier in the current proposal, other than a damage bonus and forcing it at close range. I'm glad it's not going to become another Energy Neutralizer bonused ship, as the Sentinel fills that role very well.

Since the Navy Maulus and Griffin are forced into close range, and the Fleet Vigil will be an amazing kiter, why not let the Navy Crucifier be a similar kiter to the Navy Slicer, but with EWAR capability to compensate for the lack of optimal range bonus?
Naomi Anthar
#57 - 2015-10-16 18:56:53 UTC
Ok

I will be honest here :

GRIFFIN super op. Basically anything it hugs is dead except for maybe drone boats ? Is that fun gameplay you want to intruduce ?

Vigil ... WOW not sure if joke but i see there 4.5 effective launcher +3 small drones along with long web.
NERF NERF NERF NERF maybe like 30% web bonus and cut damage to 4 effective turrets bonus and 1 drone AT LEAST. It would still be good easily.

Maulus - another joke ... dont even know where to start.

The only resaonble boat out there is navy crucifier. Looks solid , nothing op. Wrong disruptor wont do a **** against turret boats or missile and always nothing against drone boats. But somewhat i like it.

Basically those ships cannot go live like that except cruci navy which is fine.

Also why Crucifier gets 4 effective turrets 2 drones and worse ewar bonus than vigil ? Like 4.5 launcher 3 drones and better utility that is always useful?


FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#58 - 2015-10-16 18:57:30 UTC
lin Quay wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
man, not more recon bonuses :\

and why do I want +1 scram strength?

If you fly upon factional wars you see many with stab. Now they need more stab or they die when this ship arrive.

Is nerf to semi afk max stab pussy plexer cyka


It's not just good for that, it's also good for those four WCS Asteros that are running all over null sec.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lucy Alfrir
The Lost Shadows
#59 - 2015-10-16 18:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Alfrir
I like the look of these.

When are the T2 versions going to be rebalanced? or did I miss that?

I think the Hyena and Kitsune could use a drone bay.

FT Diomedes wrote:
lin Quay wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
man, not more recon bonuses :\

and why do I want +1 scram strength?

If you fly upon factional wars you see many with stab. Now they need more stab or they die when this ship arrive.

Is nerf to semi afk max stab pussy plexer cyka


It's not just good for that, it's also good for those four WCS Asteros that are running all over null sec.


and lowsec, although the 2 scram bomber is already a decent counter.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#60 - 2015-10-16 19:00:10 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
afkalt wrote:
The ecm range is stupid and so is that Maulus - has the garmur taught you nothing?

Sigh.


What's stupid about the range? It can't project ECM very well past... what, 15km? Sad

That is the point of it. You should use it at close range with high DPS blasters or rails.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.