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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Vernon Legaspe
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1221 - 2015-10-16 01:46:38 UTC
I would cancel my 4 accounts were this, or something substantially like it, to go live.

What's the point of an RPG if you can simply buy progress?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1222 - 2015-10-16 01:47:06 UTC
My initial reaction is hell no, until further details emerge I will go with that.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Scott Dracov
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#1223 - 2015-10-16 01:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Scott Dracov
I think it can be said with some element of certainty that even CCPknows this is a horrible idea but wants to push it through regardless of negative feedback.

I would like to know the names of the CSM patsies that voted yes to this if anyone has this information please share it.

I do not recall any CSM voicing support for this skill selling scheme in this thread... has any single CSM done so?

who voted for this abomination?

who benefits?

who do we burn at the stake for allowing CCP to get away with this?
Sama Dobrota
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1224 - 2015-10-16 01:50:19 UTC

SEND ME YOUR SKILLPOINTS AND I DOUBLE THEM !

_______________________________
Proven skillpoints doubling since 2015!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2015-10-16 01:50:33 UTC
Indy Rider wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
[quote=Querns]
Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.

Marech.


This point deserve attention.


Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?
I suppose the idea is that those characters aren't benefiting from additional training so regardless of efficiency their training time is better put to use this way. And of course this does accelerate training AND leave justification outside of that for maintaining the alts, though why it particularly is an issue that someone can increase their training by as little as 10% for the cost of a plex/month + extractor for every 500k SP generated is lost on me.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1226 - 2015-10-16 01:50:52 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Again the categorical thinking.

Time playing has no meaning aswell. Nothing has meaning by itself. You cannot use determinism here, as you cant anywhere else, but people still do.

It is the combo of all things that makes this idea bad. By itself it is a good idea. If nothing else was in play, sure, it is just one more way for people to get drunk on SP and bolster their confidence into ill conceived pvp moves, or sitting on a battleship you have no idea of placement or fitting.

The problem is EVE is not World of Warships. You dont simply reset your stats upon ending a bout.

Skill points define as much as the ability to fit slots, speed, agility and HP in a single ship, and that is too much. A high SP clever built char can fit ship that no fit able lesser sp pilot could. In short, it is not possible for a pilot with a number of SP to fly and use a ship to the same power a higher sp pilot can. No matter how skilled the pilot IRL is. That does not mean SP means something by itself.

A newly bought char of golden ratio, skills for cruiser t3 pvp fitted and core skilled to oblivion, in the hands of a lookyloo plex buyer, who just loled on playing EVE, will most likely to be podded by a assault frigate in the hands of a bored veteran. That does not mean IRL experience accounts for much.

The important issue here is what both do together. Once you implement prosthetic experience or sp mechanics, you are not benefiting either case, you are just benefiting the skilled veteran forged in battle who will take advantage of both and be able to easly kill either.



Yes but when that new character loses his t3 with perfect skills to a bored veteran, he'll know it wasn't a skill point issue but instead a lack of his own personal ability.

This will mean he cannot blame his loss on his needing another year's worth of training and then right there deciding it's not worth the time just to check and see if maybe he can be good enough. He'll get to immediately begin working on how to make sure his issue does not happen again, taking part in an active learning process rather than a "well I guess I'll just have to wait and see."
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1227 - 2015-10-16 01:52:01 UTC
The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.

Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.

Marech.
Pascaali
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1228 - 2015-10-16 01:53:54 UTC
If this change brings more ppl into the game its a small price to pay. However, as stated in the op eve is a game of choices, and choosing which skills to prioritize in your toons training plan is the epitome of the hard choices that make eve great. Burning unused mining skills so a new toon can fly a command ship isn't a hard choice. Devs please consider the following connected ideas:

1) Reward older players! Instead of reducing the amount of unallocated points granted to older players that inject the magic sauce, have lower skill point toons pay a penalty in skill points when they create a transneural skill packet. With out a change such as this, skill packets will kill the deliberate training of toons that are designed from day one to be sold for a specific purpose. There is s risk/reward to this "profession", perhaps the meta shifts and Guardians are ****, or archons get re-skinned in pink etc... Instead, If you have skill packets as outlined in the op, ppl will likely create "Skill farming" toons that spawn a packet everytime they hit 5.5m skill points, there is much less risk/reward to this.

2) Mitigate the high likely hood that easy respeccing will "further condense the meta" and play more logically into the idea that a toon can sell part of itself by having the transneural skill packet only grant skill points in the same skill cataegory that was used to create it.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1229 - 2015-10-16 01:57:51 UTC
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.

Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.

Marech.


Passage of time happens without any human intervention at all.

The "sense of accomplishment" for simply letting time exist and take place makes no sense since it would have happened with or without you.

Using "time" as the basis for accessibility is ********. That would be like saying whoever the oldest person alive is the one who gets to rule the world because since he's simply existed longest, he's entitled to the best of the best benefits.


lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"

haha that's so insane.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#1230 - 2015-10-16 01:57:51 UTC
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities..

That's how I felt when I realized people bought their titan characters for cheaper than the plex I spent on training mine.

Even moreso when you see what happened to the prices of these characters. Hulls too, perhaps (but Imperium prices don't go far above build-related costs)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1231 - 2015-10-16 01:59:59 UTC
Scott Dracov wrote:
I think it can be said with some element of certainty that even CCPknows this is a horrible idea but wants to push it through regardless of negative feedback.

I would like to know the names of the CSM patsies that voted yes to this if anyone has this information please share it.

I do not recall any CSM voicing support for this skill selling scheme in this thread... has any single CSM done so?

who voted for this abomination?

who benefits?

who do we burn at the stake for allowing CCP to get away with this?


Gorski seems to support it.

http://crossingzebras.com/skillpoint-trading/

You also seem to be horribly mistaken if you think the CSM or the game in general is some sort of democracy.
Anubis Aureus
Aucaedu Unlimited
Sev3rance
#1232 - 2015-10-16 02:02:22 UTC
Anubis Aureus wrote:
babblingbabblingbla


Part 2

In the end, allowing people to buy Skillpoints its the same like selling level-90-tickets in world-of-warcraft.
You can basicly skip content. Why bother doing level 1-3 missions if you can jus take place in a Battleship at the very first day and look for people you can fly with for standing? No need to do level 1-3 missions ever again. I might be the only person who ever read the missions description at least once for almost every mission, but it would just complety hollow out the whole idea of process at a certain degree.

What that basicly means people can achieve their goals in eve faster if they invest real money and at the same time they can burn out of eve faster as well. People want stuff they can achieve, and there are several people who want to do certain things.


Attention If you got two chars who start eve at the very same date, there will be always differences between them. One might start as caldari, the other one might be an amarr. And while they are usually never on the same "reallifeskilllevel" these two at the moment can certanly compete on a certain level. But as soon as you introduce skillboosts (and nothing else is all of this) the two players can be divided very fast.

I guess most people do aggree with me if I say, that Gold-Ammo in World of Tanks is/was pay-to-win. You did get better results with the same skills due to higher ingamefficency.
If you take this in comparison in eve and take two players of the same experiencelevel, you cant tell me that 2million SP dont make a huge difference in a lot of situations. People who will pay with real money will advance faster than people who will not pay real money, they will be able to get more out of their ships in a shorter ammount of time than comparable entities. And while you can argue, that this was always the case due to the charbasar: come on! The majority of the basarusers use it for alts. The fewest for their mainchar, because they usually do name their chars the way they do for a reason and want to keep this nickname.

Until now you usually could throw a shitload of money into eve, but besides the bazar which most people did not use anyway it was no way to get around the long route of skilling.
This would completly cut the journey. Why waiting, if you can pay 5€ to speed up your skillspeed?
Get now 10% more damage out of your pvpfrig if you pay 5€ for Skillpoints!

You did get more damage out of the goldshells in world of tanks.
You will get more damage in comparison to other new players if you pay for skillpoints.


And do you want to argue, that there is already this differance to the older players? And that its unfair for newer players to be hindered? As these older players also got experience the newer players dont have? That is something no money can achieve. But if you introduce Skillpoints for money you will deny newer players the experiences and the feelings of achieving something of imporance and greatness, which led the veterans to the love towards eve all of us unifies.
Maraner
The Executioners
#1233 - 2015-10-16 02:03:51 UTC
I have calmed down a little and had some time to consider this soon to be implemented against our wishes CCP cash cow.

**** no **** no and **** no.

The whole taking it from one toon, melting it , adding money and injecting into another character. It smacks of cowardice to be honest. If you are going to introduce P2W then just have the god damn balls and do it.

Aurum for SP. Don't **** it up with adding a drain to an unused skills and trying to obfuscate it by making it look like it will cost us an unused and worthless skill. They are by definition not used and worthless to you or you would not want to melt it out of the skull of an alt or your prime to liberate it into SP to turn it into a skill packet to inject.

Quite frankly the disrespect shown in this move is just amazing. I am shaking my head at this.

If CCP wanted to make this into a game mechanic they could do so with ease. Make corpses that drop from T3 kills melt-able through the newly created anchor-able Ghoul platform, perhaps for the lols add a sec loss for taking the undead skills of dead pilots and hijacking them into you... that would add emergent game play, make it a lolly scrabble for corpses, up the risk of using T3's because everyone would want to pod you to get at the slaved up corpses for those extra juicy inject able packets of SP.

But no.

Lets just make it a plain ol' cash grab. Because that has worked out well every time you tried it. Are we forgetting that people are already paying for this game. Either in cash or time (isk).

Have you grown so desperate for the $ CCP that you resort to such lifeless grubby **** as this?

Shame on you. If you want the money at least be honest about it and make it what it is in plain sight for all to see a direct transfer of $ for SP.

oh and **** you
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1234 - 2015-10-16 02:04:10 UTC
Most comments here sounds like, 'I have suffered for long to train this l33t pvp toon, and now noobz can immediately get where I am without paying their dues... Waahhhh'.. Please eve has always been P2W, look at character bazaar, pirate implants and OGB. What CCP is doing is just making it easier for newer players to P2W.

I support the proposed changes. The only downside is intel based on players age may be less accurate. Before, we know that a 6mo toon in BC is an easy gank for my T1 frigate; after this change, a 6mo toon in Drake may be able to do real damage as its missile and supports skills enable him to apply damage to my frigate.
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1235 - 2015-10-16 02:05:10 UTC
Indy Rider wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
[quote=Querns]
Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.

Marech.


This point deserve attention.


Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?


It gets more expensive, but in a game with the tremendous wealth disparity of Eve, either the space rich could easily afford this on high SP characters or no ordinary player could afford it even on low SP characters. You can't make it affordable for the masses and too expensive for the rich at high levels without making this diminishing returns orders of magnitude more potent.

Remember that the Eve elite have thousands of times more money than most of us, or any here would not be so many supercaps in the game.

Marech.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#1236 - 2015-10-16 02:06:10 UTC
Nearly every single person against this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact I can already just keep making money and trading up to better skilled characters via the character bazaar as long as I don't mind not choosing my name.

What is the big deal here apart from that it's just making something that used to be possible but only really known to old players more visible to new players?

Personally I think they should get rid of the bazaar and permaban anyone selling their account, but they think that legitimising sales is a better way to handle it as you'll never stop it. If that sounds familiar it's because it's the same argument for legalising drugs.

So if you're able to already trade in IRL cash and buy a titan pilot tomorrow, what difference does this system make?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1237 - 2015-10-16 02:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
To illustrate what is the whole problem with this idea I developed an experiment.

In 5 minutes I went from 3 likes to 53 likes, and the only person likeing my posts is myself.

I could go on to 100, 200, or whatever, but if you can think about it, you understand what it means.

In an universe where you can like account wise once, and have no other way of acquiring likes but some other person clicking in like, Likes received mean something.

When you can just alt click on like, create alts to your satisfaction, write garbage and get dozens of likes for minute, likes received stop meaning something to be just a number.

that is what this does to SP, reduces it to a number you can make of whatever you want.

Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Nearly every single person against this change seems to be totally ignoring the fact I can already just keep making money and trading up to better skilled characters via the character bazaar as long as I don't mind not choosing my name.

What is the big deal here apart from that it's just making something that used to be possible but only really known to old players more visible to new players?


That is exactly the problem. As of today, you need work to hide your instant name recognition, and your history will remain there telling others your origin. Like a **** poster a while back talking big game with a Char from 2007 bought in the bazaar. You could see his Ad Verecumdiam arguments go down the tubes when you see his char is from 2007, never joined a Player Corp, and then joined a player corp in 2015, which links it to the one bidding on this character on the bazaar as being made by one of the Corp members.

Again, it is just making everything meaningless bit by bit.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1238 - 2015-10-16 02:07:50 UTC
Maraner wrote:
I have calmed down a little and had some time to consider this soon to be implemented against our wishes CCP cash cow.

**** no **** no and **** no.

The whole taking it from one toon, melting it , adding money and injecting into another character. It smacks of cowardice to be honest. If you are going to introduce P2W then just have the god damn balls and do it.

Aurum for SP. Don't **** it up with adding a drain to an unused skills and trying to obfuscate it by making it look like it will cost us an unused and worthless skill. They are by definition not used and worthless to you or you would not want to melt it out of the skull of an alt or your prime to liberate it into SP to turn it into a skill packet to inject.

Quite frankly the disrespect shown in this move is just amazing. I am shaking my head at this.

If CCP wanted to make this into a game mechanic they could do so with ease. Make corpses that drop from T3 kills melt-able through the newly created anchor-able Ghoul platform, perhaps for the lols add a sec loss for taking the undead skills of dead pilots and hijacking them into you... that would add emergent game play, make it a lolly scrabble for corpses, up the risk of using T3's because everyone would want to pod you to get at the slaved up corpses for those extra juicy inject able packets of SP.

But no.

Lets just make it a plain ol' cash grab. Because that has worked out well every time you tried it. Are we forgetting that people are already paying for this game. Either in cash or time (isk).

Have you grown so desperate for the $ CCP that you resort to such lifeless grubby **** as this?

Shame on you. If you want the money at least be honest about it and make it what it is in plain sight for all to see a direct transfer of $ for SP.

oh and **** you

Glad to see we're processing this in a calm, rational manner and not fabricating all manner of imaginary BS to be upset about.
Emila Airhart
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#1239 - 2015-10-16 02:09:42 UTC
This is just bad,

Pay to Win Plain and Simple, cash grab anyone

Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never. exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-tradin

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1240 - 2015-10-16 02:13:02 UTC
This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.

They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.

Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.

Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk.
This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.