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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1201 - 2015-10-16 01:15:19 UTC
The secret is being abstract from chaotic thinking.

Buddy 30-day + Plex + New Player Incentives + Multi Skill Trainning = Fountain of SP

So yeah, from where you take the skills you need of the skill pill thingy ? From your ISK. New players have no ISK for that, veterans do.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1202 - 2015-10-16 01:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
For years, the Veteran Mantra shouted at noobs who complain about needing skillpoints to win has been:

"Skill points don't equal winning!"
"quit crying about not having high SP! SP is practically MEANINGLESS! What's important is your player skill and knowledge!"

So like, why all the crying now?

Apparently TO YOU, you've told us for years that skill points were practically meaningless. . . . So why do you cause such a fuss, literally oceans worth of tears over how now this what you referred to as meaningless facet of eve is now becoming more available?

Were you lying before?

Since you obviously lied before, does that mean you're probably lying now?

Essentially what it boils down to is you're too irrational and devious for the rest of us to bother listening to.
Your opinion is worthless because your only purpose of expressing it is to try and manipulate the rest of us into thinking your selfishness is actually altruism.
Beta Vixen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1203 - 2015-10-16 01:18:05 UTC
opposed.

what is this? my 12th year in game?


out in null, it is plenty simple to make 250 million isk a night if you have sufficient skills and a tough enough ship. What prevents every player from buying PLEX with isk and avoiding paying ccp for game time is the level of skills required.

Sure, for a dozen or twenty PLEX a good enough 'toon could be bought -- but the ROI on doing that is awful. It takes many weeks of virtual slavery to killing anoms to get your investment back.


This notion would make it easier -- make a few tens of millions of isk [easy to do with a Gila in null] and then buy enough SP to add a whole new type of skill to your repertoire. In essence, you do the same thing in small steps. Save for the future? Forget it, the future is now.


Does CCP have a cash flow issue? [the AUR requirement.]. Yes, I think so. Will this solve it? No, I doubt that.


***
Fozziesov still has the capability to ruin this game. There used to be a grand crusade -- either to conquer null or to prevent the other side from doing so. I think that's gone for good. The one remaining side will soon have the ability to conquer as it wishes and hold everyone else in null to ransom.

At that point, I expect paid subscriptions to start declining sharply -- mine included.


And no -- you can't have my stuff or my 'toons.
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1204 - 2015-10-16 01:18:45 UTC
I'll add my post. I've been mulling the idea over since I heard about it, and while I can see some upsides, and I appreciate CCP Devs thinking out of the box, my ultimate vote has to be: No, I can't support this idea.

It may give a quick cash boost from those that can afford it, but that will both fade, and likely erode the playerbase further for reasons stated in this thread.

A better source of cash would be more subscriptions. For the most part, you all have really improved things. Now we need a better advertising structure to get that awareness of EVE raised worldwide.
Rikki Bigg
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#1205 - 2015-10-16 01:23:05 UTC
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.

You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP.


I enjoy how everyone making the same argument you are via "character bazaar' neglects the rest of the package you get when you buy a lump of skill points using the current mechanics: a character name, a corporation history, a killboard history, a wallet history, etc.


This completely imbalances risk and reward and punishment. 'Characters have to cannibalize their own skill points to fuel this new mechanic' is the common rallying cry. And I'm quite certain that every -10 suicide ganker that has run out of isk or desire, every corp thief that has no further prospects, every deep cover spy that has been exposed, all will be happy to liquidate their only remaining asset to be funneled into a new 'face'.

Intrigue, espionage, infamy, all become a much shallower reflection of their former glory if this goes through. What kind of future does EVE hold if it must sacrifice it's heritage to get there?
Nessto Lombardi
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#1206 - 2015-10-16 01:23:19 UTC
Thumbs Down X4
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1207 - 2015-10-16 01:23:48 UTC
Indy Rider wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
[quote=Querns]
Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.

Marech.


This point deserve attention.


Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?


The way skill system is build, you don't need to skill ad infinitum. Whatever goal you have a 50m SP (and this is currently an efficient bracket) will bring you a long way towards it. So let say you want to move into Capitals, being a subcap pilot. It might be more reasonable for you to start a new account and power-level it with alts all the way to (well focused) 50m SP. Is this a good outcome for the game? No.
Anubis Aureus
Aucaedu Unlimited
Sev3rance
#1208 - 2015-10-16 01:28:49 UTC
Honestly, I don't know why i even bother to write here, as there is clear the fewest people (if anyone) will read this, but I feel the desire to give a statement nontheless.

To make it simple: No, I don't like the idea at all (as many other fellow pilots for various reasons do neither).
The most important stuff will be highlighted with a "Attention" if you cant be bothered to read it all.



But what would be the effect of all this?

1.) Skillpoints would need to be created, which would be very likely achieved by:
1.1.) "The Progamers"
At the point of introduction middleaged pilots with (in their eyes however) "wasted" Skillpoints in fields like Mining which never again was used by these pilots after the first weeks or months: So these pilots would most likely get rid of these unwanted balast and relocate them elsewhere to another, more usefull skill, or just to make some money. But at a certain point the influx of these would drasticly decrease, as people at a certain point usually know what they want to skill (or at least the direction) and got rid of the old stuff.
1.2.) "The stationaries"
Stationtraders, Tradehubscammers, Tradehubspammers, basicly people who do never actually leave stations. These people could freely do their daily work, gain more SP and just sell them right after. So it would increase the income for persons with such chars. These would be most likely the most reliable income for these Skillboxes due to the fact, that the common stationtraderchars just need certain skills and everything else would be wasted.
1.3.) "The bitter vets"
There are several pilots in eve who just dont know what to skill anymore. At 120million skillpoints you usually can fly everyhting most people find usefull and at the same time they usually do not care to much about skilling tradingskills at this point on their "main"-chars. So possibly these chars would sell SP as well or relocate them to other chars (but usually they would most likely just sell them, as these people usually do already have a nice ammount of well-trained usefull alts).
2.) Skillpoints would be consumed, which would be very likely done by:
2.1.) "Noobs"
If you are new to Eve you usually got no ******* idea what you actually want to do, and be honest: most new player start off with mining. Back in the days it was jetcanmining with Ospreys (horribly! really!) and these days its usually the venture. With this change newer players with a shitload of money could easily put their nose in several topics of eve online and have a look at the point they want to. At the moment they want to. Like "right naow!".
2.2.) "The Programmers"
Do you know these people? These pilots who want to min-max their effort in games, these people who die horribly with +5 implants in pvp because they desperatly want to gain more SP. These would buy them for sure! "Shut up and take my money!"
2.3.) "Alts"
- PI-alt, Cynoalt, Supercapital-alt, Trading-alt, Code-alt,...? You've got the money? You'll get it! In minutes!
2.4.) "people with ideas"
- Certain alliances do have skillrequirements, and from time to time, it might be tricky and timeconsuming to train such an alt. Fear not! Just get all the skills you need right now!
- "Yeah, you know I've met this nice little Miningcorp. They just recruit Miners. Just recently they've recruited a noob who just had Miningstuff skilled, they've checked it by API. The very next day he literally murdered all of his corpmates with a proteus, sitting right in front of the undock! Horrible!"
- "You know I was just roaming around in lowsec, there was a guy in local named 'Awesome PvPcharname!"... two weeks old! Easy prey I thought. Did not expect to get toasted by a two old char in a loki tho."
- "You know... people know my scamming-/awoxing-/whatever-alt by now by name everywhere. So I just deleted it, after depleeting all of its skills and transfering them to a new char. So just let's keep rolling!

So what would the final impacts be or rather what COULD be?

Positive:
3.1.) Alts could be trained way faster: I personally want a Nyx-Alt. I do have Iskies, but I want it to have a very own name and a very own corphistory. With this, I just could take my iskies and train it up right away.
3.2.) New Player could get Skills at a tremendus speed. Impairor -> Aeon in 1 day!
3.3.) Old players can get rid of "unwanted skillpoints" and even benefit from it
3.4.) Stationchars still have something usefull to do

Negative:
3.1.) => Depending on the pricing this could basicly lead to an end of the charbazar. If its cheaper to create your retort-char, why bother with a charbazar?
Attention3.2.) => Do we really want this?
Every player in Eve online got a very own history. Who of us can forget the day when we got rid of this goddamn miningfrigate and finally entered the ugly Osprey to finally mine with 4 Mininglasers and barely any cargo, which lead to a canflip-osprey-loss just a few minutes after we entered our lovely ship?
Which newer player can forget the moment when he finally left the venture for an awesome miningbarge, taking place in the seat and get the smell of something new in your nose.
Which fighter can forget his very first victory in his awefully equiped frigate, the very first moment the ship was equiped with t2 weapons, after so much time, effort and suffer?

Attentionn my humble opinion the skillingprocess is a important part of the way Eve Online actually works. I know a lot of newer players who join the game and realize "oh hey wow, this and that ship is awesome! I wish i could fly it" Have you ever heard of "The journey is the reward"? It is always a journey to reach your very first level 4mission-runningship and it an awesome feeling to finally do these things on your own the very first time.
Due to characterslimitation i will go on in a second post.. ;P
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1209 - 2015-10-16 01:29:41 UTC
Rikki Bigg wrote:
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.

You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP.


I enjoy how everyone making the same argument you are via "character bazaar' neglects the rest of the package you get when you buy a lump of skill points using the current mechanics: a character name, a corporation history, a killboard history, a wallet history, etc.


This completely imbalances risk and reward and punishment. 'Characters have to cannibalize their own skill points to fuel this new mechanic' is the common rallying cry. And I'm quite certain that every -10 suicide ganker that has run out of isk or desire, every corp thief that has no further prospects, every deep cover spy that has been exposed, all will be happy to liquidate their only remaining asset to be funneled into a new 'face'.

Intrigue, espionage, infamy, all become a much shallower reflection of their former glory if this goes through. What kind of future does EVE hold if it must sacrifice it's heritage to get there?



Be honest, 99% of the characters sold on the Bazaar are for the skillpoints, You'd have to be selling a really famous character on the Bazaar who had a significant impact in the game in order for the actual character to come into play.

So in-fact this is just an alternative method to buying skillpoints, anyone who argues that the Bazaar isn't a form of purchasing skillpoints is the delusional one.

Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1210 - 2015-10-16 01:30:55 UTC
FurBurger PotPie wrote:
Once again a half-a**ed CCP idea. If you are going to allow buying skill points for a character, don't do something ridiculous, go FULL MATRIX. Neo didn't get unallocated skill points, he got a program injected into his head that made him a Kung-Fu master. Do it that way. Want to fly a carrier? Buy a "Basic (race) Carrier Program" with all the skills at minimum prereq levels and the direct skills at level 1. Want to be a carrier God? By the "Master (race) Carrier Pack" with the prereqs still at minimum but the direct skills at level 5. Can't fly in the Corp BLOPS fleet? Buy a "Basic/Intermediate/Master (race) Blops Pack" and you can join the fun that very night.
Knowledge isn't gained by magical points, it's gained by studying/training a SPECIFIC activity. Skill Points are merely a way to assign a time to learn a specific skill at a given level. More difficult skills and higher levels require more studying and training than basic skills and basic knowledge. That is why the skill point requirements exist, to force a character to spend more time learning a more advanced skill or level.
Unallocated skill points are a convenient way for CCP to reimburse characters for CCP's errors. Don't make them a way of life.


I dont see a big difference between this and the original unallocated skillpoints idea, but several people have proposed this instead and i do like it more. Instead of selling sp packets people would farm and sell trained skills, and there would be a different market value for the different skills based on supply/demand. I think its unnecessarily complicating things over just unallocated sp but if more people are comfortable with trained skills then I'd go with them
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1211 - 2015-10-16 01:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Marech Bhayanaka
virm pasuul wrote:
My gut reaction is negative, but in my attempt to express logical reasons I can only come up with two things I like about it:

1 It is an skill point sink, it will remove skill points from the game.
The best conversion rate is 1:1 where no skill points are lost. In all other cases more skill points are consumed than released and so skill points are removed. I like the concept of this.
As skill points are removed, the existing skill points will have slightly more value, in theory anyway.


Factor in the people who would keep a few extra characters training as a SP factory for their real characters and you may see a net INCREASE in SP growth, devaluing existing SP. Certainly the average time taken to get the first 50m SP trains will decrease when wealthy players can start a new character and do the first couple years of training in a few minutes.

Marech.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#1212 - 2015-10-16 01:33:34 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
For years, the Veteran Mantra shouted at noobs who complain about needing skillpoints to win has been:

"Skill points don't equal winning!"
"quit crying about not having high SP! SP is practically MEANINGLESS! What's important is your player skill and knowledge!"

So like, why all the crying now?

Apparently TO YOU, you've told us for years that skill points were practically meaningless. . . . So why do you cause such a fuss, literally oceans worth of tears over how now this what you referred to as meaningless facet of eve is now becoming more available?

Were you lying before?

Since you obviously lied before, does that mean you're probably lying now?

Essentially what it boils down to is you're too irrational and devious for the rest of us to bother listening to.
Your opinion is worthless because your only purpose of expressing it is to try and manipulate the rest of us into thinking your selfishness is actually altruism.



these would be the 1 day heroes shooting up to reach high sp in record time that will be the idiots in fleet.

its not the SP...its the time flying to get the sp that matters and is actually factored heavily by many. This kind of why the most common question on an applicant form is "is your char bought?".

Most could give a rats ass if you bought the char. Your money, have at it. We want to know why you bought it. New player looking to speed things up ? (so in a really forgiving home we know you are a noob and can hopefully work with you on that if accepted) . Violated one of eve's main rules....never sell your main? Okay, did you learn your lesson and who was that main so we can research them up in the time you ran that char.

Worth noting this SP was already was bypassable. I know of many pirate crews where SP needs can be bypassed to a certain extent. If you can skirmish pretty good, do well in your trial (they set up a fight for you with a corp member, you don't even have to win the fight, just fly really good, not make stupid mistakes and not diaf like a muppet)...you get some +1's racking up.

+1's quite possibly better than me with 100+ mil sp with an extensive kill history from prior 0.0 time that admittedly screams "Yes, I was a F1 spam monkey" lol. Can't skirmish very well I won't lie, I'd fail many pirate crews trials.

Pheyde
Codicem Honoris
#1213 - 2015-10-16 01:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pheyde
First, I must say that in its current form this is a HORRIBLE IDEA that detracts from all the time people have invested in maintaining their skill queue's over the years.

If you're looking for a revamp of Character Bazaar, move it in game as stated and include a rename and re-sculpt with your purchase. I could still see this being used for nefarious purposes whenever someone's deeds become too infamous to continue their work easily, but it wouldn't ruin the time requirement to improve your character in the game.

Perhaps you could include an SP cap that you cannot exceed. One that is based on the amount of SP your character would have earned if it had been training at 70% peak efficiency for its entire life. This prevents someone from spawning a dozen month old cap pilots but still allows for a version of the proposed insanity. This also could be used for your diminishing returns. Each one of these Skill Packets could provide a percentage of the SP left to bring your character up to that 70% mark. Thus your first Skill Packet would be the most productive and each successive packet would be less and less fruitful making it exceedingly painful as you get nearer your 70%. This allows people who let their character lapse to try to regain some of their lost SP without enabling them to become as good as a character that has been properly managed its entire life. This also prevents new characters from instantly catching up to veterans with years invested in the game.

--Pheyde
Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1214 - 2015-10-16 01:36:22 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Indy Rider wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
[quote=Querns]
Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.

Marech.


This point deserve attention.


Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?


The way skill system is build, you don't need to skill ad infinitum. Whatever goal you have a 50m SP (and this is currently an efficient bracket) will bring you a long way towards it. So let say you want to move into Capitals, being a subcap pilot. It might be more reasonable for you to start a new account and power-level it with alts all the way to (well focused) 50m SP. Is this a good outcome for the game? No.


Yeah this is a very important point. Anything that encourages more people actively playing and doing things with their main rather than getting alts is good for the game. Alts are basically the worst part of Eve
Seblo McTar
Low Ballers And Game Breakers
#1215 - 2015-10-16 01:40:34 UTC
Rythen Risalo wrote:
I think this is a really good idea. As someone who's played the game since 2007 but for one reason or another didn't stay subscribed that whole period I have always felt that I had a lot less options than the people I play with daily. In the past I have bought a higher SP character to compensate for this and this certainly helped but I feel like I gave up my identity to have that.

Having the ability to make the exact same transaction with isk but have those skillpoints go onto ME rather than get a new SOMEONE. Is really apealling for me.

To the people who are complaining that it's buying SP with $$$. Go take a look at the character bazaar. It happens daily but in a shittier, less convenient way.





That is the exact same for me to. Would love to c this implimented.

Big +1 from me
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#1216 - 2015-10-16 01:40:35 UTC
What happened to the price of the cerebral boosters?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1217 - 2015-10-16 01:41:05 UTC
Again the categorical thinking.

Time playing has no meaning aswell. Nothing has meaning by itself. You cannot use determinism here, as you cant anywhere else, but people still do.

It is the combo of all things that makes this idea bad. By itself it is a good idea. If nothing else was in play, sure, it is just one more way for people to get drunk on SP and bolster their confidence into ill conceived pvp moves, or sitting on a battleship you have no idea of placement or fitting.

The problem is EVE is not World of Warships. You dont simply reset your stats upon ending a bout.

Skill points define as much as the ability to fit slots, speed, agility and HP in a single ship, and that is too much. A high SP clever built char can fit ship that no fit able lesser sp pilot could. In short, it is not possible for a pilot with a number of SP to fly and use a ship to the same power a higher sp pilot can. No matter how skilled the pilot IRL is. That does not mean SP means something by itself.

A newly bought char of golden ratio, skills for cruiser t3 pvp fitted and core skilled to oblivion, in the hands of a lookyloo plex buyer, who just loled on playing EVE, will most likely to be podded by a assault frigate in the hands of a bored veteran. That does not mean IRL experience accounts for much.

The important issue here is what both do together. Once you implement prosthetic experience or sp mechanics, you are not benefiting either case, you are just benefiting the skilled veteran forged in battle who will take advantage of both and be able to easly kill either.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#1218 - 2015-10-16 01:41:21 UTC
Rythen Risalo wrote:
To the people who are complaining that it's buying SP with $$$. Go take a look at the character bazaar. It happens daily but in a shittier, less convenient way.

Maybe if you asked them, they rather it be even shittier and less convenient, or gone altogether?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1219 - 2015-10-16 01:45:00 UTC
In a way I don't get the gigantic butthurt which essentially comes down "oh noes, he can catch up with my SP". Who cares (aside e-peen value) about SP ? SP doesn't make one good at this game, it only puts people on equal grounds - while being a deadweight-timewall (which frankly speaking should be fixed properly).

This change puts SP into a role of market commodity, and that's pretty good thing to do (not perfect by any means, but proper fixing is unlikely to ever happen).

Either way, anyone that gets hooked in the game will be able to afford it, whether by in-game means (ISK) or with help of RL wallet. Not exactly different from getting any ship/module/character you want with the wallet shortcut today.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Algathas
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#1220 - 2015-10-16 01:46:23 UTC
Plenty of reasons have already been said. I DO NOT support this terrible idea.