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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-10-15 15:53:00 UTC
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how much it will be used. The diminishing returns are required to prevent abuse, but that really only makes the service viable for very low SP characters. Any idea on the AUR cost of the neutral abstraction thing? That will really drive their use or non-use.

Also, any plans to move the character bazaar itself into the client?


Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-10-15 15:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrink Collie
This looks like a dead on arrival idea. Lol

The melting of characters for skill points that can be sold seems like a fairly interesting idea, but the pay to win implications of it are horrible and should die in a fire. Also, opens up a variety of tree poisoning gameplay, and we have that enough already. Roll

THAT BEING SAIDt,I'm not totally against it. There are millions of accounts, and it would be cool to melt characters that have been gathering dust for years and turn them into useful SPs. Just...... make sure you have all the possible holes plugged. This is very dangerous territory.
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2015-10-15 15:55:29 UTC
Do not do this.

I'm not normally doom and gloom, but this is how you kill your game.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Tibo Paralian
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#64 - 2015-10-15 15:55:33 UTC
I approve.
Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#65 - 2015-10-15 15:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
I think that's a really great idea.

Not only it deal the issue about really young player that wants to make something effective in the game, not necesserally by flying Mauluses or Curcifers among 50 other clones, but you can also trade SP, respec, and make SP presents to your friends.

I think that's an awsome idea, that needs to be deeperly thought.

I personnaly would like to see in the same spirit a 3rd item called "Identity Change Certificate" to allow players to change their name.
Ed Bever
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-10-15 15:55:54 UTC
Don't go down this route, please, it makes it look as if you are trying to squeeze the last bit of money out of a dying concept. I would MUCH prefer it if you, instead, tried to improve on the concept of the game.
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-10-15 15:56:29 UTC
is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead Cry
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-10-15 15:57:05 UTC
Love this idea . CCP thinking about the future of the game. L33T bitter vet get rekt. We need fresh players and new ideas. The old way of doing things is killing the game. +1 Let the tears flow
Tr0pa de elite.
#69 - 2015-10-15 15:57:07 UTC
To explain in more detail the reasons why this is a bad idea, here's a few of the ways you can abuse this:

- If you've got enough isk/aurum (which you can buy for real money or just have a crapload of from before) you don't really care about diminishing returns, you can just throw isk at the problem and it will go away. It essentially makes the game P2W.

- Today if you had your account hacked you will probably have all your stuff and isk sold off but at least you can get your char back after the hack is discovered. Isk and stuff can be regrinded. Now the first thing that's gonna happen is that whoever hacks your account will go straight to drain your char of SPs and sell that as well. Once the whole anti hack routine is done you'll get your char back in tatters. CCP might be able to restore it to the previous state from a backup or something but somehow I have the feeling that it will require someone in CCP customer care fidling manually with it, increasing the workload and overhead on GMs.

- Essentially up until 50 mil SP the diminishing returns are minimal, which means that with enough money or isk you can just train perfect narrow focused chars extremely easy and quickly. You just need a few 'harvest' chars, you drain them every now and then and inject everything in the char that you want to skill up.
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#70 - 2015-10-15 15:57:16 UTC
Bitter vet reporting in.

TL;DR: I'm not quitting and you can't have my stuff, but you're taking more and more uniqueness away from the game that I've loved since the very first trailer showing actual game footage that got me to apply for the beta and get in.

The whine fest:

Right now I have just shy of 229M SP. That is a simple number that says quite a few things. Assuming I've had this character the whole time (and I have), you know roughly how long I've played the game, what I've seen, what I've been through, etc. This can be verified with the API. I earned every single one of those SP. I'm also proud to say I've missed out on less than 48 hours of training my entire time playing the game.

That simple barometer will be useless now. I've met people in game who have trillions of isk. Literal trillions. And these people are relatively young by comparison. They've played the market beautifully, or are slaves to incursions 23/7. Either way, they spend more money in a month on toys than I'll ever make in my entire eve career, but I've got those SP. That is significant.

All of the above sounds like (because it is) whining. I get that. Here's another point of view:

I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences. The game is so realistic because the only thing you can't buy or build in the game is time. Now that is about to change. Time in game will have no meaning. The consequences for flying (and losing) T3 cruisers will only hit your wallet. Time and SP are so interconnected right now, but they won't be anymore.

I won't go so far as to say that this will make EVE into a pay to win game, but I gotta tell ya CCP, you keep making more and more tiny steps in that direction, and I do not approve.

I don't complain about people paying money for PLEX and then having tons of money in game because of two things:
1) a fool and his money are soon parted; and
2) buy all the blingy stuff you want, if you don't know how to fly it, you're gonna lose it.

That second point is going to get more and more blurry by allowing SP for isk.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in"

Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-10-15 15:57:33 UTC
grevicious wrote:
is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead Cry

I'd choose a different example if I were you. WoW is certainly less trafficked than it was in its heyday, but it is FAR from dead.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#72 - 2015-10-15 15:57:35 UTC
I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.

A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Izmaragd Dawnstar
Pagids Legion
#73 - 2015-10-15 15:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Izmaragd Dawnstar
Querns wrote:

They are pretty much forced to do this, honestly.

Otherwise, everyone in eve would generate bastard farms whose only purpose is funneling SP to their main character.

Oh, but people will do that. If your character has less than 80M skill points, 5:2 SP ratio nothing to sneeze at.
Assuming you get an account running +4s on an ideal remap, it takes just under 8 days to generate the required 500000 SP. If you have 8 accounts running, your character essentially can get 200000 more SP every day, compared to only 62640 your get with +4s and an ideal remap. More than 3 times the amount.

If this is not pay-to-win, I don't know what is.
Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2015-10-15 15:57:42 UTC
More feedback: corp thief character with a bad reputation? No problem!

Just extract all of his SP, immediately feed all of his SP right back into an all new corp thief character specced perfectly to a new target corp's doctrines, profit!

As soon as is practicable, conduct your theft, use that corp's ISK to buy a bunch of extractors, suck out the new character's SP, create a new corp thief character, repeat until you're bored stealing from every corp in EVE.

You can't even trust the "Well, we just won't recruit people who have 40 million SP on day one" idea because the character bazaar will become full of "Here, buy my eight-year-old 500k SP alt and use it for corp thievery!" characters.

Net result: the level of trust that corps are going to have in new recruits is actually going to go down, if you can believe that. Consequences? What are those?

This is a horrible idea. Please do not do this.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Lauren Istlare
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-10-15 15:57:47 UTC
I don't think the idea is bad. Nearly everyone has skills they wish they could untrain, and many would pay a couple of plex to get those SP back.

The bad part is being able to trade that SP on the market. The skillpoint extractor imo, should apply the SP into 'unallocated' skillpoints on the character that used the extractor.

In that way, the service follows the thought process of the dev blog. You allow, at some cost, a person to undo training mistakes they made early on in their Eve career.

Allowing players with the isk to do so, to consume vast amount of skillpoints for isk, is.. I don't even understand why that idea came into being.
The Slayer
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2015-10-15 15:57:56 UTC
I prefer the previous idea Soundwave was batting around : you can buy skill time you missed through plex. But that was a few years ago now.
Marsha Mallow
#77 - 2015-10-15 15:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Do-ho this is going to be good. However this one goes, fair play for picking up on this and having the nerve to put something up. Someone put Rise in the CCP bombshelter with some pizza.

Supported in principle.

I'll write something longer in response later, as I'd recommend everyone does. Yelling 'WTF NO for ~obvious reasons~!!!1!' is not an argument. Let's see your reasons for objection. This needs to be clearly argued from a personal perspective, how people think it will affect the existing playerbase, and the game going forward.

I'm sure this will explode into a delightful campaign of hysteria off eve-o, but don't worry. The first page of this thread confirmed exactly who to watch, as usual.

One early consideration might be the effects on the existing character market and participants. There are a lot of people with a vested interest here (myself included) who may react strongly to protect their interests. This is a multi-trillion ISK market and cashing out is a lengthy affair. There might need to be a more detailed roadmap to change from the current system with a built in transition period. That would actually alleviate some of the cash pumping accusations. If you can get past the screeching phase, that is.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#78 - 2015-10-15 15:58:14 UTC
grevicious wrote:
is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead Cry

If you think about it very deeper, it's already the case with the Character Bazaar.
You don't have SkillPoints ?
But you have real life money ?
Buy a 100 PLEX bundle and you can get any character, with any amount of SkillPoints your money permits it.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#79 - 2015-10-15 15:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Ripard Teg wrote:
OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.

I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...

Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP.
Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running.
Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.

And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.

Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.

Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?

But it'll net CCP around $3000, what's not to like?

Edit: I reread Dev Blog, we weren't given a price yet.
Julius Flavus
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2015-10-15 15:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Flavus
Pay to win anyone?

Buying a character is one thing. Buying actual skill points and applying them to your character is another.

Stop the flow of development resources on this now.