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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5581 - 2015-11-11 15:20:15 UTC
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5582 - 2015-11-11 15:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Danmal wrote:
I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.


Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes.

The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable.

New guy: o/ can i join your corp?
Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us
New guy: aww man Sad
Corp CEO: Fear not! If you have a few billion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need.
New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Straight
Danmal
TYR.
Exodus.
#5583 - 2015-11-11 15:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Danmal
As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain.

Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG").

Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.

My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5584 - 2015-11-11 16:54:01 UTC
Danmal wrote:
As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain.

Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG").

Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.

My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.

What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5585 - 2015-11-11 16:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Danmal wrote:
Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.

So by giving someone skillpoints you think will make them more social - Most new players are aware of the newbie aspect and avoid drawing any such attention towards that very detail. The best approach would be to create crafted templates on creating - Combat pilots - Haulers - Miners - Scanning - Droneboat pilots.

Danmal wrote:
My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?
Its not the effort that's involved as your fully aware asking such an obtuse question, but the principal that was laid out by CCP very early on about time investment should never be superseded by a monetary one. You can bet everyone wished there was a fast forward button at some point in there EvE career, If its needed as an inclusion point from entry to the game how long with they still be playing when the long haul skills kick in from 20 days plus.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5586 - 2015-11-11 17:12:22 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Danmal wrote:
I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.


Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes.

The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable.

New guy: o/ can i join your corp?
Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us
New guy: aww man Sad
Core CEO: Fear not! If you cave a few pillion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need.
New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Straight


New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve.
Yea right .... MORE like
New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game
Danmal
TYR.
Exodus.
#5587 - 2015-11-11 17:30:13 UTC
The persistence with which you refuse to answer my two questions (what game you pay $45 for without really being able to play the game and what your effort was to get to, say, 5 M SP) amazes me and suggests that you don't have good arguments for either of them other than "that's how it's always been done." If you do have good arguments for how these two aspects of the game are attractive propositions for new player retention, I am still genuinely interested in your answers.

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain.

Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG").

Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.

My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.

What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5588 - 2015-11-11 17:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Danmal wrote:
The persistence with which you refuse to answer my two questions (what game you pay $45 for without really being able to play the game and what your effort was to get to, say, 5 M SP) amazes me and suggests that you don't have good arguments for either of them other than "that's how it's always been done." If you do have good arguments for how these two aspects of the game are attractive propositions for new player retention, I am still genuinely interested in your answers.

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
As I stated the retention rate was from players that started in 2005, an early cohort. While I could speculate what it is today, I would not have any data to support my claims, so I'll abstain.

Apart from that you still have not answered my genuine questions: what game do you pay $45 for in which you basically cannot do much? What we are talking about here is really the difference between these two scenarios: Let them pay $45 in advance and put them in a ship that allows them to compete at a small level (that is, FW or in null fleets in a small support role). The alternative is, let them pay $45 over three months to achieve the same point in game, but by that point you have lost at least 80 percent of people (again that's for the early 2005 cohort; the source is Feng, Brandt, and Saha, 2007, "A long-term study of a popular MMORPG").

Moreover, to give people unallocated skill points would be an opportunity for them to get socialized, because you have to put thought into how to allocate them, don't know how to do it by yourself, and go out to seek advice how to do it.

My second question is also unanswered, which is how is the skill training you did in your first three months in any way related to effort?

Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.

What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".



It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that way. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit. If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.

That shouldn't need explaining...


Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5589 - 2015-11-11 17:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Gregor Parud wrote:

You can pvp pretty much from week 2 SP wise, realistically. The issue is understanding and knowledge, which is not helped by having more SP and that is going to take a whole lot longer. Actual new players need more time to get used to the game, learn its UI, mechanics, and gain experience. They are in no way helped by having more SP.

What you're stating is "it's really just better for the game" is, as it always is, just a lie. What you MEAN "it's better for me and my alts".


I think you are absolutely correct about extra SP not helping new players learn the game or even encouraging them to stick with the game.

I have played SWTOR:
The PvE learning path and it is a path - so throw away the sandbox for this one - has some very compelling, exciting and entertaining gameplay. You stick with it because it is a large quest with a series of sub plots and ends with a gateway to team play & PVP (incursions)

It consists of a series of interrelated missions that teach you gameplay, some parts ( not compulsory) cannot be completed alone it takes team play to finish them and as you miss out on experience points this actively encourages you to communicate with other players - and these teams can be long lasting, you find yourself teaming up with the same people to do the next sub-quest.

Content gets people to stick with a game, PVP as an end game encourages people to stick around

FYI - The end game PVP in SWTOR sucked so I quit but not until I have run the PVE missions on a Toon for each character type but then its as intended - SWTOR has a decent churn rate and cash in on the PVE content
Danmal
TYR.
Exodus.
#5590 - 2015-11-11 17:43:44 UTC
Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point.


Quote:

It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.

If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.


Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.

Danmal
TYR.
Exodus.
#5591 - 2015-11-11 17:47:33 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Danmal wrote:
I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.


Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes.

The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable.

New guy: o/ can i join your corp?
Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us
New guy: aww man Sad
Core CEO: Fear not! If you cave a few pillion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need.
New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Straight


New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve.
Yea right .... MORE like
New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game


Finally, a valid argument against. But we both know that we don't know the answer, that is, whether it would attract or repel new players. The answer would be in the data and would require testing. Your guess is as good as mine.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5592 - 2015-11-11 17:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Danmal wrote:
Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point.


Quote:

It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.

If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.


Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.


I did answer your 2 questions above, Also show me any other MMO which you can get for free with all expansions - Have 60 days time for the price of 1 month subscription and be playing in the bigger leagues of players within your first 30 free days.

T3 doctrine dessie fully tech2 fitted for PVP - sub 30 days, Just because your skills are limited don't assume its the games fault.
EDIT

PS. Thats all for $15

The effort, how about the effort to do the tutorials so you know what to do, the effort to find information to help you in your endeavors, the effort to socialize, the effort to find out about tools and utilities to help with your progress, and most of all the effort to find a decent corp to set you going - After all that effort you should find your just rewards.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5593 - 2015-11-11 17:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Danmal wrote:
Still no answers. And starting somebody at a higher level of SP compromises the idea of progress and growth how? It just puts the starting point at a different, that is higher, point.


Quote:

It's called an MMO, where you expect and agree to character progress. Like other MMos which are exactly the same in that away. apart from the ones who went to **** and in a last ditch desperate attempt started to sell instant gratification, which didn't help one bit.

If you don't like the concept of character progress and growth, then feel free to stop playing MMO's or other RPG games and stick to shooters.


Also, stop with the special snowflake moronic "post above the quoted bit". It doesn't make you look special, it only makes it more difficult to read.




A higher level of SP is meaningless without the knowledge to use then

Example: Your chosen allegiance is to the Order of the Knight Templar and your school is illusion - If I give you 3million skill points are you better off training them into dark defense, swordsmanship, dueling or arcane lore - Meaningless - until you have the knowledge to make an educated choice.

The SP cannot be targeted to create a focused Toon - or aligned to a chosen path - Better off giving out a remap at 7mill SP
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5594 - 2015-11-11 19:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Danmal wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Danmal wrote:
I can think that because if they limit it once and for all to newbros, then it does not fck up the core of the game, as you say. Because the newbro needs to be advanced to the core of the game first, so that s/he can participate in it.


Why do new players need to be quickly advanced to a "core level"? ...what ever that is. The only people who say that are people who live in lull sec and want all new players to join their already overgrown hordes.

The majority of players live in HS and there is plenty to do at both the low and high level in HS. This system does very little to benefit new players in a meaningful way. It attempts to replace the character bazaar but fails because it penalises older players to a point where it is virtually unusable.

New guy: o/ can i join your corp?
Corp CEO: Sorry but you need 15 million sp to join us
New guy: aww man Sad
Corp CEO: Fear not! If you have a few billion sp spare, you can buy all the sp you need.
New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve. Straight


New guy: OMG i'm now hooked on eve.
Yea right .... MORE like
New Guy: But I thought it was only $12 a month to play .... ***K that I'm off to play another game


Finally, a valid argument against. But we both know that we don't know the answer, that is, whether it would attract or repel new players. The answer would be in the data and would require testing. Your guess is as good as mine.


Just like the old learning skills and attribute implants, players will view this as something you need to do to compete. I struggle to see how paying to train skills and then feeling as though you need to pay extra on top of that, to compete, could possibly attract new players.

I'll say it again; this feature is not aimed at new players, it is aimed at earning CCP more money. If ccp wanted to help new players get into the game faster, they would give them free sp for completing the tutorial, joining their first player corp or upon there third month in the game.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#5595 - 2015-11-11 20:24:58 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


The latest retention data are:

50% of new players never subscribe
40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years
10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.

CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.

So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#5596 - 2015-11-11 20:41:09 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.


Well said.

Quote:

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


It gets worse, the people begging for the show to be an X-factor clone aren't conscious of the fact that that is exactly what they are asking for. Nor do they even consider what happens to most X-Factor clones (cancellation, because why watch an x-factor clone when x-factor actually exists).
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5597 - 2015-11-11 20:55:09 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


The latest retention data are:

50% of new players never subscribe
40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years
10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.

CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.

So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.

I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way.
Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5598 - 2015-11-11 21:33:14 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


The latest retention data are:

50% of new players never subscribe
40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years
10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.

CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.

So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.

I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way.
Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.



The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.



Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5599 - 2015-11-11 21:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


The latest retention data are:

50% of new players never subscribe
40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years
10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.

CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.

So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.

I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way.
Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.



The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.

So you mean your fine with receiving a plex or 30 days but the new player gets nothing, that's not how recruiting works in any other game that does this sort of thing.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#5600 - 2015-11-11 21:56:07 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Danmal wrote:
CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005


So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch?


According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.

What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?


The latest retention data are:

50% of new players never subscribe
40% subscribe and become PvErs; they rarely last longer than 2 years
10% become PvPrs and may stay like forever, usually longer than 4 years.

CCP's solution to that retention problem is to do everythign possible so PvErs become PvPrs. Considering why PvErs stay only 2 years or what could be done about that apparently never was in the plans.

So here we are, on the road to F2P as CCP treats 80% of their subscribers as more or less expendable.

I've always thought CCP's version of recruit a friend has been a bit of an arse about face way of doing things. What they could do is give the new player on subbing 1.5 or 2 mill skill points and the introducer a choice of a unique skin or ship not available to get any other way.
Griefing / ganks plays a large part in new players departing to, so many times you here that someones lost hope because they were trying to something mundane as a lvl1 mission and been popped. Yes its all ***** n giggles for the do'ers but doesn't do much for the receivers.



The best way to improve new player retention stats is to have them make friends with other players - Giving them SP or any other free stuff is not going to help them do this.




The best way to improve new player retention is to ensure they can fully enjoy the game even if they don't make friends with other players -since that's exactly what most of new players will do.