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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2241 - 2015-10-16 22:27:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


here's what we know;

it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.

one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.

now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.

that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.

now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.


Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire year’s worth of SP (~144 billion ISK).

Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into Malcanis’ Law.



we've already dispelled that one - this change isn't aimed at new players.

if a new player wants to open their wallet - it benefits them even more than "rich" players.as for the same £$£$ cost they will get more sp than an older player with equally deep pockets.


What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Reiisha
#2242 - 2015-10-16 22:28:07 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.

I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.

End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.

This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.



The bazaar system doesn't just give you SP.

It gives you a fixed amount of SP, with a fixed number of skills at fixed levels. You either take it or leave it.

You also get a fixed name and fixed reputation attached to that name.

"Just SP" is a fundamentally different concept.... It's nowhere near similar to the bazaar. Buying a character is not the same as buying skills.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Dave Stark
#2243 - 2015-10-16 22:28:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and that's different to now how?

if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have?
cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can.

If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are.
It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.


you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't?


So we should make it even easier?


no, i think we should make it harder and encourage illicit character trading.

(that's sarcasm, by the way)
Dave Stark
#2244 - 2015-10-16 22:29:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2245 - 2015-10-16 22:30:03 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.

I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.

End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.

This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.


Actually, there is a big difference between this and the character bazaar, source CCP Rise.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave Stark
#2246 - 2015-10-16 22:30:48 UTC
Glathull wrote:
I agree with Dave Stark on this.


fyi, that makes you wrong by default :)
Sloeb
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2247 - 2015-10-16 22:32:16 UTC
I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.

That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.

That's all. Cheers.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2248 - 2015-10-16 22:34:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.


Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge?

Not sure that is what we need right now.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2249 - 2015-10-16 22:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sloeb wrote:
I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.

That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.

That's all. Cheers.


Okay Grandpa, can you tell us the story again about how you walked to school, in the snow, up hill...both ways?

You can be against this, but the "I put in my time, everyone else should too" makes you sound like an old fart complaining that people don't want to wait for things when they don't have too. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave Stark
#2250 - 2015-10-16 22:38:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.


Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge?

Not sure that is what we need right now.


what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them?

as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something.

seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting?
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2251 - 2015-10-16 22:38:06 UTC
100+ page.
http://previews.123rf.com/images/dejanj01/dejanj010904/dejanj01090400065/4677395-smiling-ball-watching-movie-in-cinema-smiley-emoticon-face.jpg

Stop writing.
Go to dismantle the monument to the Amarr.TwistedTwisted

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00

T1K1
Perkone
Caldari State
#2252 - 2015-10-16 22:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: T1K1
Reiisha wrote:
Glathull wrote:
Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.

I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.

End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.

This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.



The bazaar system doesn't just give you SP.

It gives you a fixed amount of SP, with a fixed number of skills at fixed levels. You either take it or leave it.

You also get a fixed name and fixed reputation attached to that name.

"Just SP" is a fundamentally different concept.... It's nowhere near similar to the bazaar. Buying a character is not the same as buying skills.


There are so many characters for sale there per week that you can find any type of character you want. Even exactly the specialty you want with no known reputation and no wasted skills if you are patient. Nothing about it is fixed, there are 200m SP characters that come up for sale every now and then. There are 5m SP mining pilots and 120m SP Titan pilots you can buy there.

You either take it or you just find one you like better the next day. There are a lot of people selling characters. Trading around SP like this is not new.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2253 - 2015-10-16 22:42:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


It's not anything for new players. Just another of the many, many things they won't have a clue about. It will not affect them in any way. Just because something is good for old players does not mean it's bad for new players. It just means it's good for old players.

And speaking of that. If it was actually good for old players, I have to wonder why there are so many vet tears in here.

People need to stop stating opinion as fact and speaking knowledgeably about a Dev-Blog they obviously haven't read past the title of (not directed at you). There are some well thought out opinions in here and some considered responses to them, but these are lost in the morass of raving fear mongering that takes up 90% of this thread.

The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion.

Mr Epeen Cool
Soul-on-Ice
Mayhem and Ruin
M A R A K U G A
#2254 - 2015-10-16 22:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Netcat
You asked for feedback so I'm sure you expected the types of input you are getting from the largely inexperienced and unqualified (to have an opinon) players who are responding.

I must have sold 50 to 100 toons on the character bazaar throughout the years.

Seems like a great idea. And it apprears the way in which you plan to exact the plan is pretty logical.

Lets do it.

If I had a complain it would be that some of the SP I would looking at selling off is SP that was intially required for carriers like BS5 and ****... so in in some cases the only reason I got excesses of SP with alts is your fault to begin with.

BUt as always...improvising, adaptiving and overcoming > QQing.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2255 - 2015-10-16 22:47:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.


Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge?

Not sure that is what we need right now.


what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them?

as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something.

seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting?


It isn't just mains, it is alts as well. Or re-arranging SP at the micro level. Suppose I have 2 cap alts who can fly the moros and revelation both at level 5 and I decide...screw it, I don't need an alt with 2 racial dreads...I'll keep the moros skill, dump the rev. So I buy the extractors, and then create 2 new character on free slots and pump in the SP and create a character that can fly iskprinter ishtars. Now I've taken 2 nearly fallow alt and created 2 that have improved my ISK stream. I know guys who have a few of these characters...they could park a small fleet of iskprinters in the anomalies. Or suppose I want to try my hand at trading. Now I could create trading alts and park them in different trade hubs.

Can a new player do these things? No. The bottom line is that older players will tend to have more flexibility than the newer players...that is an advantage.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sloeb
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2256 - 2015-10-16 22:47:13 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sloeb wrote:
I'm mildly against this. Mainly because it sort of undermines the blood, sweat and tears that I've put in over the years. I'm unlikely to use this because as a rule I don't support this sort of excessive money grubbing.

That said, if this does come to pass CCP, please closely consider the numbers behind the diminishing returns part of this. There's already a diminishing returns mechanic that "punishes" vets...skill ranks. 50,000 SP may be a big chunk of a rank 1 or 2 skill, but is much less of a percentage of progress of higher rank skills. While a low SP character is getting a huge bang for their buck if they're training primarily low rank skills, an 80M+ SP toon probably has just about all of those low rank skills already trained. They'll want to be skilling much more expensive skills and 50K is a drop in the bucket on those. I can't imagine that you'd get too many high SP players spending money for the tiny gains they'd be getting. I certainly won't.

That's all. Cheers.


Okay Grandpa, can you tell us the story again about how you walked to school, in the snow, up hill...both ways?

You can be against this, but the "I put in my time, everyone else should too" makes you sound like an old fart complaining that people don't want to wait for things when they don't have too. P




Yeah, yeah. Get off my lawn!
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2257 - 2015-10-16 22:48:12 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.



I have not. Even though EVE back then was much tougher game then nowadays, we had fun. Imagine bunch of people mining in frigs for days for corps first cruiser, then mining for months to get a first BS. Starting trade with less than 5mil isk and making the first billion, months after.Boring? Not really, it was sh*tload of fun, experiencing new game totally different from all others, learning new things every day, working on improving both isk / sp / skills and trying to soak all the possible knowledge we could. Socializing with other players, making friendships which still last, years after it even if all of us do not play the game anymore. RL meetings of players from different countries with shared joy of playing in the same corp/alliance. Checking different aspects of the game. First alliance and access to 0.0 and rich ores. First BS which i could have afford months before i started flying it as i wanted to develop proper skills first. So many nice memories, I cant even remember the "hard, slow game" part. Actually first 3-4 years of eve were the best in my career.

With this knowledge/experience, if you ask me was it better that way or it would be better with easier start I would definitely choose the way I already did.

I am sure some will say that it was different as the most of players were starters, but keep in mind that there were plenty of people who had played beta and had quite big advantage over new players as they had knowledge what to do. They did not make mistakes like me putting too much attributes in charisma etc :P

One of the things was common for all the players who sticked to the game and made it what it is. Commitment and willingness to put time and efforts in it, no matter how hard it is. And I do think that is what made EVE to stick out from different games, toughness and need for elitist players, if you were not ready for it, you would not play it. So making it easier in my opinion is just plain wrong, it is not what people want from this game. At least the most of the people who are ready to commit seriously.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#2258 - 2015-10-16 22:51:35 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Ima, I'll respond to the PLEX price portion of your argument in a different post.

Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.


Your colleague has already explained how the 400k rookie pilot (today) can turn into an 82% max dps efficient gank alt in about 9 days and 350 dps pilot in 15 minutes.

Regardless of how little time it takes to train a gank munchkin, it is still against EULA to recycle alts for ganking purposes, so I'm not sure what the problem here is that you're highlighting.


This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there.

This pool of gank alt accounts stays that way and you can scale your fleet easily for the DPS needed or relog to circumvent the criminal timer.

The only thing you can't do is biomass an alt with negative sec status to get a new one with intact sec status.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2259 - 2015-10-16 22:53:44 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion.

Mr Epeen Cool

Over a 110 pages and you think it is settling down quicker than usual? *chuckles*

It is going the same way all threads usually go, you get the initial response from the majority of people, and then towards the middle you get more reasoned discussion on the merits and drawbacks of the idea, and then towards the end you get the same old faces endlessly discussing/trolling the same points over and over again with no one agreeing.

We are at the end stage now.
Dave Stark
#2260 - 2015-10-16 22:54:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What myth...it is clearly in line with Malcanis' Law. This change will predominantly to the benefit of the older players. This is not good for new players, IMO.


it isn't in line with malcanis' law. the change isn't aimed at new players. we've been through this.

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

this change hasn't been proposed for new players, it has been proposed for all players.


Okay, but I don't think older players need any more advantage. We already have high SP character(s) and most have pretty hefty wallets...now we should have the ability to gain even more of an edge?

Not sure that is what we need right now.


what kind of edge would dumping extra SP on their main 50k at a time give them that buying an alt for the fraction of a price to do whatever it is they're trying to achieve give them?

as mike pointed out in his blog - most of the bazzar characters are cheaper than it would be to "build" your own from packets even from 0-30m sp or something.

seriously - what kind of edge would they be getting?


It isn't just mains, it is alts as well. Or re-arranging SP at the micro level. Suppose I have 2 cap alts who can fly the moros and revelation both at level 5 and I decide...screw it, I don't need an alt with 2 racial dreads...I'll keep the moros skill, dump the rev. So I buy the extractors, and then create 2 new character on free slots and pump in the SP and create a character that can fly iskprinter ishtars. Now I've taken 2 nearly fallow alt and created 2 that have improved my ISK stream. I know guys who have a few of these characters...they could park a small fleet of iskprinters in the anomalies. Or suppose I want to try my hand at trading. Now I could create trading alts and park them in different trade hubs.

Can a new player do these things? No. The bottom line is that older players will tend to have more flexibility than the newer players...that is an advantage.


you can already buy an extra character. - anyone can.

yes, a new player can do those things. they open their wallet, buy plex, sell them, then buy new characters.

if new players open their wallets, just like old players, they can do exactly the same thing. character or account age doesn't stop you using this new system or the character bazaar.