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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
J0rj Lmoz
Rawbot.
#2201 - 2015-10-16 21:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: J0rj Lmoz
I'm not real life or space rich and skills is one thing that I have that could make a difference between me and other player with lots of ISK,Aurum or Plex available.

Please don't do this , you will make real life money an advantage on Eve Online.

This will not make new players stay, but will make many players leave. Skills is the only thing that cant be bought and should stay like that.
atif09
Ltd Angel
#2202 - 2015-10-16 21:40:04 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:

The new system:
I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it.
Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.

The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller.

In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost.


Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.

Do you see a difference now ?



with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp

Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption:
• 0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added

BlackWilk
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#2203 - 2015-10-16 21:40:59 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
beakerax wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.

I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention?

The first year of play was probably the best. I did give up after a week on the first attempt, but then I did a bit of research first and came back later and it was great fun.

Now after being in the game for quite a few years the game is still great and has a lot of charm, but it can never have the same magic and awe inspiring epic feel that it had in that first year. I can still see that same feeling though in the new players I speak to as they begin their journey.


agreed! the firsts of everything were just magical <3. and working to earn it was worth the struggle.
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#2204 - 2015-10-16 21:42:20 UTC
atif09 wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:

The new system:
I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it.
Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.

The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller.

In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost.


Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.

Do you see a difference now ?



with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp

Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption:
• 0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added



So a hearty BUGGER OFF to everyone that's played for a significant amount of time. Yea thanks for that.


Blue Harrier
#2205 - 2015-10-16 21:43:30 UTC
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#2206 - 2015-10-16 21:43:35 UTC
J0rj Lmoz wrote:
This will not make new players stay, but will make many players leave.

Skills is the only thing that cant be bought and should stay like that. Please don't do this. -1 player if this goes forward .


It might help newer players. It doesn't need to turn them into 50 million SP supercap pilots to help them out.

Quantify many players before you tell us how many will leave. And can they wait until this goes into effect so we can ask for your SP?

And yes, skills can be bought. Entire characters chock full of skills and skill points can be bought. All the things can be bought.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2207 - 2015-10-16 21:44:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:
First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement.
Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".

Quote:
What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet.
They don't need to. Whether or not you agree that game time and sp are equivalent (I don't), you should be able to work out an approximate exchange rate.
Wizzard117
Wizzard117 Corporation
#2208 - 2015-10-16 21:45:56 UTC
Does Amarr system have a monument like in Jita? ^^
Dave Stark
#2209 - 2015-10-16 21:46:38 UTC
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#2210 - 2015-10-16 21:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Jill Xelitras wrote:

Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.

Do you see a difference now ?

Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued.

Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills).

At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2211 - 2015-10-16 21:50:59 UTC
I think he is assuming there will be no cost to extract skill point, which is incorrect, so that he can transport this commodity for free.
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.
Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2212 - 2015-10-16 21:52:29 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted.


What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space!

I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit!

My EVE friends and I will all go play Farm Sim 2015 if this makes it to TQ.

I will not support CCP in this "new player experience" trash that is making the game too easy. At this rate new players will start out with 40 mil SP and 10 bil isk. CCP is forgetting what got them here. Some people like hard games, it sets us apart from other gamers.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#2213 - 2015-10-16 21:54:22 UTC
If this happens...good luck with your game...

And by your game I mean League of Legends, because Riot Games is where the Devs will go once Eve collapses in on itself and CCP go under...

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Dave Stark
#2214 - 2015-10-16 21:55:13 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:

Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.

Do you see a difference now ?

Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued.

Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills).

At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.


here's what we know;

it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.

one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.

now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.

that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.

now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.
BlackWilk
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#2215 - 2015-10-16 21:55:49 UTC
Maekchu wrote:

Doesn't change the fact, that the skills are still trained. The skills does not pop up from thin air, which was what the guy initially argued.

Whether this mechanic can be abused, is something completely different. Your example, shows a possible abuse and does not really contribute to the original discussion (which was regarding the time spent on training the skills).

At this point in time, it is really not possible to tell, if it will be profitable to do the above scenario, since we don't have all the information needed to make such a judgement. But it sure is a concern and something CCP hopefully will take into account. This is the reason for this thread. So people can discuss this change in a rational manner, and not throw their arms in the air screaming "Ragnarok!" and "The end times are near!". The latter provides nothing constructive to the table.


the argument wasnt that the sp appears out of thin air. the argument is that the character you buy on the bazaar was a carefully planned product. the value of a character is how well it is spec'd. if you dont spec your character well you dont get much isk for it. it creates a managed supply of different types of products/characters. a person is playing for the time and the planning. it also retains the kinda measurement of how old a toon is and what it may or may not be capable of.

sure you could just go buy a maxed shield toon. but doesnt mean he will have gun skills. that toon sacrificed gun skill training to have missiles. buying unallocated sp removes the decision 'should i do armor or shield?' and such. i concur that the ability to buy and sell unallocated skill points would cause more harm than good to what the vision of eve is normally seen as.
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#2216 - 2015-10-16 21:57:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.



Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.

POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2217 - 2015-10-16 21:58:07 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Cearain wrote:
First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement.
Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".


Have you tried using the concept of opportunity cost? EVE players often get that point. Work up an analogy with mining your minerals are not in effect free. Spending X number of your leisure time to avoid a $15 expense does not mean you are playing for free. Same thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2218 - 2015-10-16 21:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerasia
Vic Jefferson wrote:
And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP.
Do you need somebody to drag up the first posts in 2003 of people complaining about the SP system?

"If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far?"
- I could replace "SP" with "Theme-Park" in that sentence, if you want to see some real salt.

"Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players"
- Depends on which parts of the EVE forums you frequent, I suppose. P

"but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression."
- I'm partially agreed here: Paying for progress isn't a great end-state. But are you willing to push solving the issue for good and just remove SP entirely?

"Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy."
- Are there bigger elephants in the room? Can I bug CCP Quant for that data?

"EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden."
- Why should this incline be determined by the SP you're being drip-fed, instead of the ISK you've been generating through learning how to play?

"Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game."
- Are you willing to break NDA to show the figures that SP climbs aren't why people are leaving and Vets have such a hard time getting their friends to play?

"Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier."
- So nobody should be happy unless we know the single solution to making everyone happy?

"The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?"
- What makes keeping people around for a few months while they work towards a goal, and then leaving when they realize the goal is boring (i.e. "Leveling a Raven") better than letting them see what the gameplay is like to begin with and leave or stay based on how fun the game is?

Edit: Putting in links to original posts because this threadnaught is still moving at 2 pages a minute.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104544#post6104544
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2219 - 2015-10-16 21:58:56 UTC
But this does not work. Because you cannot activate SP package and extract SP without a fee

Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.



Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.

POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.

Dave Stark
#2220 - 2015-10-16 22:00:13 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.



Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.

POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.


it's not what i think.

this system quite literally has nothing to do with jump clones dude.