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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2181 - 2015-10-16 20:49:50 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it



And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far? Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players, or doing lots to get them treading water faster so they can share this universe with us, but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression.

I'll entertain that space is empty, but it's a little bit of a weak statement considering your alliance there. There's still content to be had. Some areas actually see more content than ever before. Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy. We now live in an age when there are strategic ratting fleets - that doesn't sound very engaging does it? There are so many culprits of why people are leaving, why not try and address these rather than just sell character progression to the highest bidder?

EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden.

Chrome Veinss wrote:
I dont want to see it go the way of slowly bleeding subscriptions as cool stuff arrives too little too late, which is what has been going on basically since I started playing. The only difference between paying for sp and paying for a subscription or plexing an account is the time factor and I dont see any benefit to maintaining the time barrier, eliminating it gets more people in space flying more ships faster. If the problem is creating a more dynamic sp market so that people constantly buy sp to make up for subscription money then simply add more sp sinks. Im not advocating for this, just trying to think of possibilities beyond having everything stay the same with ever increasing PLEX prices and decreasing player numbers


Going free to play is like a normal healthy game deciding to try hard drugs. It's gona feel REAL good for a little bit then...

Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game. Figure out why the universe has lost its groove and how to get it back. Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier. The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2182 - 2015-10-16 20:52:52 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.

SP sales and Character trading are not identical.
When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.

With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.

TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.

Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.



You make a good point. I have thought a couple of times what it would be like if you could apply a full skill level immediately and then wait out a cooldown timer equal to the current training time ... but completely removing the time element for people willing to cough up the money is a drastic change.

Some argue that the character bazaar does just that. But as you say, there's a difference between training one character to x SP and selling the character as is on one hand as compared to maintaining a SP farm and selling SP packages. The latter system removes the necessity to follow a strict skill-plan that you had to decide on first on the seller side. This makes farming a no-brainer similar to PI if not worse. With PI you still have some planning and risk. The buyer doesn't have to deal with skills he didn't want, which is good. But as it gets easier to just buy SP from the market and immediately apply them, assuming no cooldown timer, that mechanic will become a must do.

This reminds me of rigs. Pre-release rigs seemed like those optional items you could use to tweak your ship a little. After release it very quickly became unviable to fit a ship without rigs.

It could be, that "the power of two" (referring to the promotion of playing EvE with an alt helping your main) became "the power of twenty". You would train 20 characters to 15m SP to get 20 x 10m transferrable SP to sell on the market or apply to your own characters.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Dave Stark
#2183 - 2015-10-16 20:54:45 UTC
Daaaain wrote:
No one is reading this you know..


ccp are always reading. that's why i post.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2184 - 2015-10-16 20:56:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
which mmo has she played?

is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in?

Is it matter? They all gone by now propably. BTW I assume all microtransactions are f2p, because of microtransactions. It was one of the reason, major, that she stopped playing. She didn't want to pay, and she starting to feel the gap between those who did. EvE SP is not all about combat PvP there are other activities too.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Dave Stark
#2185 - 2015-10-16 21:00:12 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
which mmo has she played?

is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in?

Is it matter? They all gone by now propably. BTW I assume all microtransactions are f2p, because of microtransactions. It was one of the reason, major, that she stopped playing. She didn't want to pay, and she starting to feel the gap between those who did. EvE SP is not all about combat PvP there are other activities too.


well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2186 - 2015-10-16 21:01:52 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.

I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2187 - 2015-10-16 21:10:42 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions.

They have vets, with bigger wallets. Rich vs poor. Let's say it's +1 year after the SP for aurum introduced. "Should I start EvE? Well, it depends how much money do you have?".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#2188 - 2015-10-16 21:10:59 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.

I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention?


First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement.

What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet. Eve is a fairly inexpensive hobby. Maybe for children it is not, but do we really need more children in eve?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2189 - 2015-10-16 21:12:12 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
I have gone from sitting on the fence to supporting this idea. My reason is that I found an old account with 3 50mil sp alts on it that I have not had subbed since 2011. I shall do my part to help newbros by cashing out that sp when the market has stabilised at a level I am happy with, my concern is that there might be a couple of hundred thousand alts all sitting in a similiar position to mine.

Why not advertise those alts on the bazaar and give some newbro the opportunity to buy them. 3 with 50 mil SP, at least one of them has got to be worth more than pulling apart for profit.

And you are right, the sheer amount of unused characters could see an excess of SP packages available, to a limited pool of purchasers. This doesn't hurt CCP of course, once you make the SP package they have been paid for it but the player selling it could on the other hand be stuck with SP packages he or she can't sell because demand is far outstripped by availability. One or two of eves richest decide they want to screw with the SP market - Only the eve rich or those with high disposable incomes will be able to afford SP packages, just look at plex prices and how they are manipulated.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2190 - 2015-10-16 21:12:41 UTC
If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2191 - 2015-10-16 21:15:56 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Just needed to point out a small correction to the discussion here.

SP sales and Character trading are not identical.
When you sell a character you are buying time. This time might be fully utilized the way you want it to be or it might not.. The fact remains that to get a 200m SP char from the bazzar you have to have a char which was painstakingly trained to 200m.

With SP sales you have direct injection of something now rather than later.. In essence a removal of time.

TLDR: Bazzar = Buying someone elses time. SP Trading = Autisticly removing the need for time.

Regardless of your position on this subject the above is immutable. Removing training time will have a profound effect on eve online as it has never been done before. History will tell if its the right one. I personally only dislike the system because it will be abused for RMT but beyond that I see Rises point and I can see the clear desire for CCP to moniterize the game more.


But the 500k SP points are still trained normally on the character that wants to sell them. The SP does not magically appear out of nowhere. They have already been trained, just like on the characters sold on the bazzar.


This is a common misconception..
To explain when a character is trained currently.. every minute of time used is effectively "read only".

When you turn time into a "commodity" and allow direct extraction and transition of this new "commodity" you are effectively ticking the switch that says "read only" and allowing someone to adjust time at will within very wide constraints.

IE current system:
I train a character for 3 years. Sell it.
The buyer gets 3 years worth of time that cannot be altered except to add to it. The buyer is in effect buying my time and only my time. The quality of my product is determined by what I used that time for.

The new system:
I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it.
Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.

In short it removes the immutability of time=SP and instead converts the system into SP exclusively. The entire EVE wide SP pool is now no longer locked into specific characters that must be bought and traded to be useful but instead you have a system where we can redistribute the entire pool as we see fit.

Again.. this is an individual choice as to if this is good or bad. Both sides of the argument have pros and cons. I will state again that this type of system has never existed before in eve online. SP have, until now, been considered immutably locked once trained. The gravity of this change is so massive its hard to comprehend the long term possible interactions with the community.


... and than imagine any players quitting EvE ...

Instead of the "can I haz your stuff", you'll get "can I haz some SP". Now I get why they made 5m SP the minimum for extracting SP. Most players quit before they are 5 months old.

Again, I'm not against the idea but it needs to thorough thinking through. Wouldn't want EvE to have a SWG NGE moment. This reeks like it could have exactly that potential.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2192 - 2015-10-16 21:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Chrome Veinss
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Something WAAAAAY more drastic that fundamentally changes how this game is played or its business model needs to be done to get the EVE population to healthy numbers. Right now most space is empty. Dead. If this very minor proposal causes such a hysteric reaction from people, I can easily imagine a situation where change averse players holding back the evolution of the game end up killing it



And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far? Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players, or doing lots to get them treading water faster so they can share this universe with us, but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression.

I'll entertain that space is empty, but it's a little bit of a weak statement considering your alliance there. There's still content to be had. Some areas actually see more content than ever before. Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy. We now live in an age when there are strategic ratting fleets - that doesn't sound very engaging does it? There are so many culprits of why people are leaving, why not try and address these rather than just sell character progression to the highest bidder?

EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden.

Chrome Veinss wrote:
I dont want to see it go the way of slowly bleeding subscriptions as cool stuff arrives too little too late, which is what has been going on basically since I started playing. The only difference between paying for sp and paying for a subscription or plexing an account is the time factor and I dont see any benefit to maintaining the time barrier, eliminating it gets more people in space flying more ships faster. If the problem is creating a more dynamic sp market so that people constantly buy sp to make up for subscription money then simply add more sp sinks. Im not advocating for this, just trying to think of possibilities beyond having everything stay the same with ever increasing PLEX prices and decreasing player numbers


Going free to play is like a normal healthy game deciding to try hard drugs. It's gona feel REAL good for a little bit then...

Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game. Figure out why the universe has lost its groove and how to get it back. Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier. The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?


There are real world reasons why people are leaving, I think. Take the russian players for example, who have seen substantial increases in the cost of a subscription due to the exchange rate of the ruble. Most european economies are struggling. The exchange rate between Brazil's real and USD is insane right now. So the real life subscription price keeps increasing for many players, while the ingame PLEX price also keeps increasing without equivalent buffs to isk faucets. Add on top of this the (very much needed) bans on isboxer's multi broadcasting, the fact that many people have stopped subbing capital alts because capitals arent as relevant in today's meta and new games (many FTP) being released all the time and the result is a huge drop in subscribed accounts.

Short of merging with Serenity, there is no way to get the boost of new players we need that doesn't involves making EVE cheaper or more accessible in some way. If a lot of people start leaving the game, it will create a snowball effect where more and more people leave as space gets emptier and emptier and there is less content. But if a lot of people start joining the game, it will also have a snowball effect where more people start coming because space gets populated and there is more and more content.
Dave Stark
#2193 - 2015-10-16 21:18:07 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
well yeah - because most of those subscribers lost their vets long before they went to subscription models... they lost vets because they sucked not because they had microtransactions.

They have vets, with bigger wallets. Rich vs poor. Let's say it's +1 year after the SP for aurum introduced. "Should I start EvE? Well, it depends how much money do you have?".


and that's different to now how?

if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have?
cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can.
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#2194 - 2015-10-16 21:20:08 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:



Laodell wrote:
Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win.

Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.




What you're asking for is a world without consequences. A world without consequences does not create an environment of cooperation to build, only an environment where griefers, thieves and bandits can engage in their standard of play. The disrupting of others enjoyment of the game.

More people may play for a short time to bully others with impunity. But even that will pale when all the builders have left.

As for the character bazaar that line has been discussed. It is no where near buying SP. You're buying a character. You have to perform the research and make a wise decision.

Everyone in this thread has acknowledged CCPs intent by discussing the purchase of SP. Not the character bazaar or much else that goes with it. At best being able to reclaim the SP from existing toons creates an environment in which you can exist without being held accountable for past poor decisions.

Being able to look at a persons reputation is paramount in determining the safety of a new corp-mate. Remove that and you remove a lot of the safety in building within the game. Then there's CODE destroying game play for the new players and driving them off too.

Bugger to all that.


On the bright side, Eve was 1 of 3 games keeping me on a Windows desktop. That's one less thing keeping windows 10 a risk. If I can find a Linux replacement I will leave windows and Eve entirely.

We shall see how this plays out.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#2195 - 2015-10-16 21:21:47 UTC
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted.


What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space!

I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit!
Dave Stark
#2196 - 2015-10-16 21:24:27 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Titus Cole Dooley wrote:
If this makes it to TQ im done. My time in EVE will have been wasted.


What about the cool things you saw? The people you met? The friends you made? The things you experienced? The wanderlust of exploring space!

I know people jokingly call this game Skill Queues Online, but that's ridiculous! Now that the end of the skill queue tirany is at an end, we can't just throw our arms and quit!


if all he did was load skills on a skill queue he didn't spend any time in eve anyway.

it's quite the paradox. he either did spend time in eve - which won't have been wasted because he was doing things. or, he didn't do anything in eve which means he didn't spend any time which could be considered wasted.
Robart Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
#2197 - 2015-10-16 21:28:46 UTC
I would like to voice my opposition in the strongest terms possible. However, language that foul would fall afoul of the forum rules. So, please for the love of bob no.

It won't appeal to the sort of players who will be around long term, because they may just buy a pile of SP, make a terrible toon, and either quit or sell the toon when they've had their fill of endgame stuff at week one. That's not a good thing for a health game.

It adds a substantial perceived front-load of payment to the game, because you figure if you can't fly anything you might as well buy the skills, potentially more than a hundred dollars for anything worth while. That won't look good. It's part of what turns me off of freemium games so hard.

It makes a shortcut available that devalues the work and commitment of your existing players. everyone in the game has either trained their toon or dealt with buying one. Yes, it might have been nice if you did this back when you originally designed the game. But now, after a decade, the time for a radical change and shortcut is well past to me.

It puts further strain on plex prices, which have only ever gone up. I'd rather not see them continue to.

It's either too granular, or not granular enough. It's sitting in the middle where many skills will take multiple packets to perfect, but is still overkill for many of the basic skills, and ends up with a plex equivalent cost of at least 300M just for the skill points involved. I don't know many newbies who have that much to spare without having spent real money. In which case, it becomes pay to win even more than it already is.

It destroys toon age as a skill metric. It's something people do use, even if it can be wildly inaccurate, because it's better than nothing.

In my opinion, a better idea would have been to allow an extra fee to be paid (a nominal one in ISK, not aurum or plex, although those work too), to rename the character while you buy or sell it, and potentially restrict it if the seller doesn't want to allow it, or by the type of sale being made.

CCP, I understand you have to make money. A sub fee bump would be unpopular, so aesthetic micro-transactions are one of the few areas you have to innovate in without affecting the rest of the game. But please, keep the micro-transactions out of the game proper. I don't want to have to buy Gold Faction Ammo to win a fight or contest, nor do I want to have a place where some guy can simply outspend me to progress faster.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2198 - 2015-10-16 21:30:21 UTC
Plz CCP, go down on your weird SP trading monster.

For one time, do something that is along with the business :

Go For NPE and add something that is known to work during the first 6months or the first year of subscription :

LOGIN REWARDS
with free SP (like 10 to 100k per day) / T1 fregs pack, free skill books, T1 drone packs, trade goods to be sell etc...

That will greatly help newbros to discover items and stuff in eve.

And pls, remove skillbooks from the game that you are giving to all toons with the 350k SP buff (which is great but maybe not enough !!) Give those skills to every toon and just remove the books from NPC market !! make the collectors or whatever !

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2199 - 2015-10-16 21:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Maekchu wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:

The new system:
I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it.
Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.

The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller.

In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost.


Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on per month.(edit: added per month to make it clearer. It depends on the size of SP extraction / booster packs whether you can sell monthly or have to wait a couple of months ... but in essence it's much faster than training 1 character to 30m SP)

Do you see a difference now ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2200 - 2015-10-16 21:36:24 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded.

I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention?

The first year of play was probably the best. I did give up after a week on the first attempt, but then I did a bit of research first and came back later and it was great fun.

Now after being in the game for quite a few years the game is still great and has a lot of charm, but it can never have the same magic and awe inspiring epic feel that it had in that first year. I can still see that same feeling though in the new players I speak to as they begin their journey.