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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2161 - 2015-10-16 20:29:08 UTC
Great post, Miss Mallow!
Marsha Mallow wrote:
You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline?
I have a couple of questions on this:

1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention?

2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2162 - 2015-10-16 20:30:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Game won't die. Quality of player base will change. It's pandora box, once open it can't be close again. In long term EvE will become microtransaction game. " If I can buy SP, why not deadspace modules?". People are inpatient. " I pay, I want more!" or "I wanna buy titan and win EvE". EvE needs commitment to play, it's a sandbox, instant gratification crowd will not do any good here.
PS. I'm ex-miner, spend great time, with great people in mine-ops. Never regret it.


erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.


This is true. Right now if you want to get in a titan and you have lots of RL money you can do this pretty quick. You'll probably lose that titan pretty quick too...but hey, you're a titan pilot on day 1...if you really want that kind of thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#2163 - 2015-10-16 20:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Mr Epeen wrote:
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.

Mr Epeen Cool

Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link.

Querns 128 posts (5.9%)
Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%)
Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%)
Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%)

These are 4 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious.



Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2164 - 2015-10-16 20:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Maekchu wrote:

However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill...
I'm so used to the abysmal use of the English language in here that the word losing jumped out at me as being the wrong spelling.

That is scarier to me than this whole CCP just killed the game crap that is at the root of this Republican manifesto wrapped up in the guise of an SP allocation thread.

Mr Epeen Cool
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2165 - 2015-10-16 20:32:04 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Great post, Miss Mallow!
Marsha Mallow wrote:
You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline?
I have a couple of questions on this:

1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention?

2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?


The SP packets and the extractors can be sold on the market for ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

BlackWilk
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#2166 - 2015-10-16 20:32:52 UTC
Maekchu wrote:

And you are totally right. If two toons having the same ships, with the exact same fits and piloted the exact same way. The one with the most SP relevant for that particular ship will win.

However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill. More often, it relies on superior piloting or a better fit. Given my own experience with PvP and the deeds of some other pilots (like Suitonia and his low SP PvP videos), is the reason I don't deem this change game breaking, since I don't find SP that important when deciding power in EvE.

But at least we agree that CCP needs to do something in order to become viable in today's MMO market. While it is maybe not the ideal proposition. Hopefully, constructive feedback (opposed to knee-jerk whining) will actually result in something positive in the end. I am just happy, that CCP acknowledges something drastic needs to happen.



i do recognize that it is very rarely where it comes down to sp. but just because its a rare occurrence doesnt mean it is without affect entirely in other situations. to kite someone not only depends on your piloting as a person or on your ship, but your speed is affected by your sp in those areas. thus still affecting everything else. it is a very small factor in most fights but it still shouldnt be disregarded to a point where people with deep pockets are favored.

i am trying to do more than just knee-jerk whining. yesterday talking with my corp mate was knee-jerk whining. ive been hoping today i would be more of a debate than a baby :P. youve helped me articulate quite a bit. sorry if ive sounded like a ***** more than someone trying to express a valid opinion.

i liked one idea where extra skill points could be processed from collected corpses. i think these could then be used on the person or sold on the market if they wanted to. much like other loot. i think this would be a good way to create real value towards the sp earn/bought. it would make the source of supply much more towards in game content then just having some alts sitting there training sp. still favors deep pockets by a little bit, but i think it would mitigate it to a level that puts it more along the lines of buying ships with plex. that ship is only there available to buy because somewhere along the supply chain someone spent the time to mine the minerals and someone else spent the time to get/research the blueprint.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2167 - 2015-10-16 20:33:56 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill...
I'm so used to the abysmal use of the English language in here that the word losing jumped out at me as being the wrong spelling.

That is scarier to me than this whole CCP just killed the game crap that is at the root of this Republican manifesto wrapped up in the guise of an SP allocation thread.

Mr Epeen Cool


And it's here that you see the prejudice that informs this posters thinking.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#2168 - 2015-10-16 20:34:05 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?

Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2169 - 2015-10-16 20:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Saken
Dave Stark wrote:

erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.

I meant golden ammo, ammo, for the love of Jita monument!
I spoke with my girlfiend who played microtransactions mmo (I have no experience). Her conclusions: vets will be gone (most of them), new players will stay for a while but without being hooked (and it's hard to be hooked to EvE) will leave too. It's two way payment, subs/plex and paying for SP. SP is used not only for combat. There won't be any attachment to characters, you may rename them to: slot 1, slot 2 and slot 3. I think she's a bitter vet althought she not played EvE at all. "It's a bit too much science, I'll log D3 and chop some demons".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2170 - 2015-10-16 20:34:39 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.

Mr Epeen Cool

Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link.

Querns 128 posts (5.9%)
Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%)
Teckos Pech 67 posts (3.1%)
Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%)
Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%)

These are 5 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious.



Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change.


Sorry, I've changed my mind as I noted several pages back. I still think lots of people are having knee-jerk reactions and are saying no for the wrong reasons...but they got to the right answer in the end.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2171 - 2015-10-16 20:35:31 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Great post, Miss Mallow!
Marsha Mallow wrote:
You have to ask, why the hell are people so resistant to a change that would spectacularly improve retention when the PCU is visibly in decline?
I have a couple of questions on this:

1. Why do you think this idea would spectacularly improve retention?

2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?


re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#2172 - 2015-10-16 20:36:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.

Mr Epeen Cool

Those stats don't show what you think they show. Let's look at some of these prolific posters having a "forum meltdown" from your own link.

Querns 128 posts (5.9%)
Dave Stark 95 posts (4.4%)
Teckos Pech 67 posts (3.1%)
Tyberius Franklin 51 posts (2.4%)
Alavaria Fera 43 posts (2.0%)

These are 5 of the top 7 posters, all have been very much for the proposed changes. In point of fact, most of the disaffected users, so called "froth and tears" posts tend to post they're concerns once or twice and then leave the thread - while those 5 users post over and over how this proposed feature is exactly the same as the character bazaar. As if by repetition, they will prevent the community from seeing the obvious.



Ironically, your link shows the exact opposite of what you describe. A small cadre of users are desperate for this feature to go through, and the majority of posters (not posts) are strongly against this change.


Sorry, I've changed my mind as I noted several pages back. I still think lots of people are having knee-jerk reactions and are saying no for the wrong reasons...but they got to the right answer in the end.

My mistake, will edit the post accordingly.
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#2173 - 2015-10-16 20:36:45 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills.
PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties.




No matter how you abstract the concept it's still P2W. I can spend RL $ on a PLEX, and buy my Titan Skillbook, and Titan.

I payed, now I win. Will I appreciate the value of the Titan if I lose it? At current prices buying 6 plex packets at a time would require about 72 ~ 73 PLEXs at just over $100 each. I can buy a Titan for a little over $800 USD.

Will my heart race if I am about to lose $800 USD ? Not nearly as much if I put the effort into the Titan the long way.

Fortunately ? I don't have that cash to blow on a Titan.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#2174 - 2015-10-16 20:37:18 UTC
I have gone from sitting on the fence to supporting this idea. My reason is that I found an old account with 3 50mil sp alts on it that I have not had subbed since 2011. I shall do my part to help newbros by cashing out that sp when the market has stabilised at a level I am happy with, my concern is that there might be a couple of hundred thousand alts all sitting in a similiar position to mine.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2175 - 2015-10-16 20:38:10 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:

Just a side note, if bazaar is removed it will be back on very fast. Since without it RMT ing of chars would increase and since the income of SP packet trading would be nowhere near the income from bazaar transactions.

Sorry but my income would be all but gone if the bazaar and SP sales were to go side by side. I generally do cheaper, what you may call starter toons of between 30 and 50 mil SP.
Unless CCP were to charge extremely high prices for the SP packages (will encourage RMT'rs) and set a limit of how many can be applied to any one character (sort of defeats the purpose) the characters I sell will never be worth enough to make it worth doing them anymore.
The current high price of plex is already having an affect, people don't want to pay more for the characters but the cost paid to CCP to trade them has gone up over 100% since I started doing it - It used to cost me 1 bil isk now it is getting close to 2.5 bil but my characters are only selling for 1 to 1.5 bil isk more than they were a few years ago. Some traders must be actually just breaking even on sales as some chars sell for little more than the cost of the training and 2 plex needed to pay CCP.
-- - -- - -- - --
Quote:
Why not instead move the experience into the client? By doing that we increase discoverability and we can avoid the awkward auction system.
Moving the bazaar to the client or at least having it duplicated in the client may make it easier for players to find but unless it is a dedicated app that has specific search functions it is not going to really achieve much. The worst aspect of the bazaar is trying to find what you are looking for. Hundreds of characters listed makes finding one that suits your needs a tiresome and often frustrating undertaking. (why some players end up with crappy names and terribad corp histories)

CCP say the auction system of the character bazaar is "awkward" (what about eve has ever been easy) but they are so wrong. The auction system is what makes the bazaar great, players will pay for what they want. There is (up till now) no real fixed price for SP, it is worth what you will pay for it. Depending on how the SP is used to a large extent will add or detract from the value of the character - CCP is looking to give SP a set $ / isk value which will kill the character bazaar especially for any character with less than 50 mil SP.

Yes Kil2, some people end up with crappy names and horrible corp histories - Bottom line, the choice was YOURS, no-one forced you to buy that particular character. You could have waited a week, maybe 2 and something else may have come along, possibly cheaper or maybe with better skills and a decent name.
So rather than break part of the game by selling SP, why not add an option to change your name - At the time of purchase / transfer - for an additional cost. This has no effect on anyone or anything, except through the removal of a name and corp history the previous owner put together.

A character newly purchased from the bazaar getting a new name could be given a specific corp history - "Faction" medical corp - to indicate it is a character that has just been purchased. This sends a clear warning to corps that mat be recruiting, that this character has recently been sold (it has no real corp history) and therefore recruiting is "at your own risk" as it may be a known corp thief changing his identity to try and rip you off - Don't give access to the alliance wallet till you get to know the player. Or it may just be some guy who wanted a new char with a name he or she preferred, without someone else's corp history.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Dave Stark
#2176 - 2015-10-16 20:39:44 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

erm, buying deadspace modules/ships already exists. just buy a plex, sell it, and buy what you want.

I meant golden ammo, ammo, for the love of Jita monument!
I spoke with my girlfiend who played microtransactions mmo (I have no experience). Her conclusions: vets will be gone (most of them), new players will stay for a while but without being hooked (and it's hard to be hooked to EvE) will leave too. It's two way payment, subs/plex and paying for SP. SP is used not only for combat. There won't be any attachment to characters, you may rename them to: slot 1, slot 2 and slot 3. I think she's a bitter vet althought she not played EvE at all. "It's a bit too much science, I'll log D3 and chop some demons".


which mmo has she played?

is it one of those failed ones that was subscription based but sucked so much **** the only way to get new players was to become f2p and then fund itself by shoving microtransactions down the throat of anyone that would log in?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2177 - 2015-10-16 20:41:43 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?


Chrome Veinss wrote:
re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk.


Maekchu wrote:
Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point.


Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then...

Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)?

Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK?


Thanks in advance Blink

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Maekchu
Doomheim
#2178 - 2015-10-16 20:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then...

Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)?

Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK?


Thanks in advance Blink

Yes, you destroy one PLEX and gain 3500 AUR in exchange.

As far as I know, AUR cannot be traded directly with other players, besides buying a new plex and selling it to someone else (or the AUR tokens). But that is just item trading, and not direct AUR transfer.
Wolfe copying
Naked Industries.
#2179 - 2015-10-16 20:46:19 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
2. Don't you think it's bad to offer SP-trading, but only linked to AUR? Discriminating based on willingness and/or capability to fork out extra cash on top of a sub? Milking extra money for a feature that - maybe, if you're right - will already generate money by improving retention? Why not offer a SP-trading mechanic, but without the AUR part?


Chrome Veinss wrote:
re: 2. you can buy aur with isk, and you can buy whatever aur buys with isk so i don't see how its "milking people for real life cash". I'm not going to be spending any extra money as long as I pay for a subscription, but I'd be interested in buying some sp for isk.


Maekchu wrote:
Given that a PLEX can be converted to AUR, I actually don't find this too bad. If AUR was only limited as something that could be attained with IRL money, then I might have agreed on your point.


Mmmhhh... ok, I have to think this through then...

Kindly help me on one question: can you actually convert PLEX to AUR directly? As in, destroy a PLEX and get AUR in exchange (directly from CCP)?

Also, can AUR be traded among players in exchange for ISK?


Thanks in advance Blink


Yes you can exchange a plex for AURUM for 3500AUR per plex. I don't think you can sell AUR directly for isk although I haven't looked very hard for it.
Daaaain
Mogu Heavy Industry
Fraternity.
#2180 - 2015-10-16 20:47:30 UTC
No one is reading this you know..