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Drone And UI related suggestions
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2015-10-14 13:54:16 UTC
I have been a drones pilot since day 1 and I have some comments to add to this based on those experiences.
These refer to the appropriate numbered item in the OP post and are not responses to anyone else.

1 - Control range is extremely easy to calculate and never changes unless you change your fit, and it does no vary with the drones in use. Perhaps it is problematic to you because this is all new to you. The only valid reason I can think of for denying this is that no other weapons system has max range data this clearly displayed so why should we drones pilots be given special features. Alter this portion of your idea to make max range just as easy to see for ALL weapons systems and I could support this one, otherwise you are asking for something that benefits drones pilots only and that I will not support.

5 - As long as this applied to salvage drones only I would have no problems with this. However in the current state of the game this would affect all drone types and that would give drones pilots advantages that are not shared by any other weapons system so I have to say no.


Joe Risalo wrote:
Percentage is completely relevant when you can't tell if the drone is damage without locking the drone.
I'm a bit OCD and it's important that my drones are at 100%. If a drone is at 95%, it's hard to tell if it's damage on the drone interface window.

As far as I can tell no other module or weapons system gives the exact percentage of damage taken / left displayed in this clear a fashion, they all have to deal with bar graphs so tell me how and why we as drones pilots deserve to have something better than everyone else?
And yes I am aware that the only damage individual modules / weapons take is damage from overheating but that does not alter the fact that they have to deal with bar graphs and not exact numbers.

Setting that aside if you are OCD about your drones what does it matter if they have taken 2% damage or 4% damage? They are damaged that can easily be seen so rep them that way you know for sure that they are 100%.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#22 - 2015-10-14 14:26:43 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
I have been a drones pilot since day 1 and I have some comments to add to this based on those experiences.
These refer to the appropriate numbered item in the OP post and are not responses to anyone else.

1 - Control range is extremely easy to calculate and never changes unless you change your fit, and it does no vary with the drones in use. Perhaps it is problematic to you because this is all new to you. The only valid reason I can think of for denying this is that no other weapons system has max range data this clearly displayed so why should we drones pilots be given special features. Alter this portion of your idea to make max range just as easy to see for ALL weapons systems and I could support this one, otherwise you are asking for something that benefits drones pilots only and that I will not support.

5 - As long as this applied to salvage drones only I would have no problems with this. However in the current state of the game this would affect all drone types and that would give drones pilots advantages that are not shared by any other weapons system so I have to say no.


Joe Risalo wrote:
Percentage is completely relevant when you can't tell if the drone is damage without locking the drone.
I'm a bit OCD and it's important that my drones are at 100%. If a drone is at 95%, it's hard to tell if it's damage on the drone interface window.

As far as I can tell no other module or weapons system gives the exact percentage of damage taken / left displayed in this clear a fashion, they all have to deal with bar graphs so tell me how and why we as drones pilots deserve to have something better than everyone else?
And yes I am aware that the only damage individual modules / weapons take is damage from overheating but that does not alter the fact that they have to deal with bar graphs and not exact numbers.

Setting that aside if you are OCD about your drones what does it matter if they have taken 2% damage or 4% damage? They are damaged that can easily be seen so rep them that way you know for sure that they are 100%.



hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.
Iain Cariaba
#23 - 2015-10-14 16:23:35 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
I have been a drones pilot since day 1 and I have some comments to add to this based on those experiences.
These refer to the appropriate numbered item in the OP post and are not responses to anyone else.

1 - Control range is extremely easy to calculate and never changes unless you change your fit, and it does no vary with the drones in use. Perhaps it is problematic to you because this is all new to you. The only valid reason I can think of for denying this is that no other weapons system has max range data this clearly displayed so why should we drones pilots be given special features. Alter this portion of your idea to make max range just as easy to see for ALL weapons systems and I could support this one, otherwise you are asking for something that benefits drones pilots only and that I will not support.

5 - As long as this applied to salvage drones only I would have no problems with this. However in the current state of the game this would affect all drone types and that would give drones pilots advantages that are not shared by any other weapons system so I have to say no.


Joe Risalo wrote:
Percentage is completely relevant when you can't tell if the drone is damage without locking the drone.
I'm a bit OCD and it's important that my drones are at 100%. If a drone is at 95%, it's hard to tell if it's damage on the drone interface window.

As far as I can tell no other module or weapons system gives the exact percentage of damage taken / left displayed in this clear a fashion, they all have to deal with bar graphs so tell me how and why we as drones pilots deserve to have something better than everyone else?
And yes I am aware that the only damage individual modules / weapons take is damage from overheating but that does not alter the fact that they have to deal with bar graphs and not exact numbers.

Setting that aside if you are OCD about your drones what does it matter if they have taken 2% damage or 4% damage? They are damaged that can easily be seen so rep them that way you know for sure that they are 100%.



hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.

Which is not the same as max range.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-10-14 16:25:25 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
I have been a drones pilot since day 1 and I have some comments to add to this based on those experiences.
These refer to the appropriate numbered item in the OP post and are not responses to anyone else.

1 - Control range is extremely easy to calculate and never changes unless you change your fit, and it does no vary with the drones in use. Perhaps it is problematic to you because this is all new to you. The only valid reason I can think of for denying this is that no other weapons system has max range data this clearly displayed so why should we drones pilots be given special features. Alter this portion of your idea to make max range just as easy to see for ALL weapons systems and I could support this one, otherwise you are asking for something that benefits drones pilots only and that I will not support.

5 - As long as this applied to salvage drones only I would have no problems with this. However in the current state of the game this would affect all drone types and that would give drones pilots advantages that are not shared by any other weapons system so I have to say no.


Joe Risalo wrote:
Percentage is completely relevant when you can't tell if the drone is damage without locking the drone.
I'm a bit OCD and it's important that my drones are at 100%. If a drone is at 95%, it's hard to tell if it's damage on the drone interface window.

As far as I can tell no other module or weapons system gives the exact percentage of damage taken / left displayed in this clear a fashion, they all have to deal with bar graphs so tell me how and why we as drones pilots deserve to have something better than everyone else?
And yes I am aware that the only damage individual modules / weapons take is damage from overheating but that does not alter the fact that they have to deal with bar graphs and not exact numbers.

Setting that aside if you are OCD about your drones what does it matter if they have taken 2% damage or 4% damage? They are damaged that can easily be seen so rep them that way you know for sure that they are 100%.



As lady rift stated, your concerns for 1 are irrelevant (not trying to be rude) because this info is displayed when you hover over weapons in your fitting screen, as well as on your hud. They also take into account active modules that increase range, as well as ammo type.
Actually, they display information for every module that isn't passive on your HUD.
They even go a step further as they will actually display that your optimal is 25km and falloff is 50km as opposed to 25+25.
So, asking for a little bit of math out of the drone control window isn't much, considering all the math done for your hud.


Now, as far as the percentage damage displays, this too is done when hovering your mouse cursor over a module on your HUD. Though, i have slightly more to say about this.
If a module has a minor amount of damage, the red is much more visible than it is on the drone window.
As well as the fact that you can hover to see damage %.

So, everything that I've asked as far as 1-3 is no more than what is already being done for the hud modules.

As far as the salvage drone thing, I agree that it can and/or should be limited to salvage drones.
This again is a question of ease of management.
When you launch drones, they're automated systems that will freely engage targets if told to do so.
I wouldn't suggest this change, if drones were more easily manage independently.

Example.
With a Noctis, I can easily manage my salvagers on individual targets because they have hotkeys.
In the case of salvage drones, i cannot set hotkeys to individual salvage drones like I can with salvagers.

That said, salvage drones are less efficient at salvaging because they're supposed to be automated.
So, it's a trade off. Less efficiency for automation.
However, as they currently sit their efficiency is even further hindered by the fact that they require significantly more management in order to increase efficiency, yet that efficiency with micro-management is still quite a bit less than salvage modules.
Basically they're counter-intuitive by not having the automation ability to salvage wrecks independent of each other.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-10-14 16:27:20 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Which is not the same as max range.


This is true. However, I can hover over a web, scram, disruptor, or any other module that only has a max range effect and it will show that.

Also, max drone control range doesn't dictate drone max range.
Just because I can control my drones out to 150km doesn't mean my drones has a 150km range.
Iain Cariaba
#26 - 2015-10-14 16:35:44 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Which is not the same as max range.


This is true. However, I can hover over a web, scram, disruptor, or any other module that only has a max range effect and it will show that.

Also, max drone control range doesn't dictate drone max range.
Just because I can control my drones out to 150km doesn't mean my drones has a 150km range.

Actually, excepting sentry drones, they do. They simply have to fly out there.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-10-14 17:12:29 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Which is not the same as max range.


This is true. However, I can hover over a web, scram, disruptor, or any other module that only has a max range effect and it will show that.

Also, max drone control range doesn't dictate drone max range.
Just because I can control my drones out to 150km doesn't mean my drones has a 150km range.

Actually, excepting sentry drones, they do. They simply have to fly out there.


All drones have an optimal and falloff, as well as modules that effect those stats.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-10-14 19:32:50 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


All drones have an optimal and falloff, as well as modules that effect those stats.


Oh, and as a side note, people rarely fire outside of falloff, so max range is almost irrelevant.
You're better off slow boating it towards your target until you're within standard falloff as opposed to firing at falloff +.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#29 - 2015-10-14 19:39:03 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


All drones have an optimal and falloff, as well as modules that effect those stats.


Oh, and as a side note, people rarely fire outside of falloff, so max range is almost irrelevant.
You're better off slow boating it towards your target until you're within standard falloff as opposed to firing at falloff +.



There is no point in arguing with a man that has this grasp of the game and his steadfast dedication to his idea. He's clearly invicible.

+1 (good job)
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#30 - 2015-10-14 20:13:42 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I've been playing around with Drone boats lately, trying to get a feel for likes and dislikes.

I've found some issues I'd like to bring to light.

1) there's no easy way to determine your control range. It requires you to click show info on your ship, after all related modules have been attached, then scroll down until you find control range.
Solution A) when fitting window is open, hovering over drone DPS Icon will show control range.
Solution B) drone control range is listed at the top of the drone control window, when undocked.

2) When looking at drone velocity, optimal, and DPS; it requires you to show info or look at fitting window (in the case of DPS) however, fitting window shows highest potential drone DPS, and not the drones you intend to us.
Solution) when hovering over a drone, in drone control window, it should display this information, just as it does with modules on the hud.

3) it is hard to tell how much damage a drone has taken.
Solution) display % amount remaining instead of the undeterminable water marker they currently are.

4) Deleted this suggestion....

5) When focus fire is UNCHECKED, drones should prioritize independent targets, just as a player would with ungrouped turrets/launchers. However, the player can command the drones to engage the same target by simply giving the command.
This will also optimize salvage drones, which perform better independently.


These are just the things I've come across, so far, in playing with drone boats.


I have my own ideas for Drone UI Overhaul that I have been cooking up, but I will simply comment on yours ;-)

1) Yup this is a problem, and this makes sense. One idea could be to also have some hover information on hover for drones that give you their combat information same as turrets and launchers

2) They are working on a ghost fitting window that allows for basic simulation, it would be nice to say "have these in bay, but calculate dps based on x drone group"

3) Yup, also allow us to see if drones are taking ewar... yellow/redboxes too but lets not get crazy.

4) Deleted this response (J/K never got to see the suggestion)

5) Yup I love it... in addition a button that basically means "weapons free". Combat drones would fire how they chose too, mining drones would mine as they would, and salvagers would do their thing.

Overall, very cool. Drones have been the bastard stepchildren of the weapon systems for a while. It is a shame people respond so negatively because drones are hyper effective in some cases.

The issue is Drones are such a complex (read difficult) to control or even understand system, to make them effective you have to give them certain things. The problem is certain use cases will utilize these niches to maximum effect (read: sentry blobs).

This issue this doesn't make Drones enjoyable to use. So they suck to fight with, and suck to fight against. That tells me they need to be reworked. They don't need to be changed fundamentally, but a better control system, will allow balances to better bring drones in line with everyone else. These options go a long ways, but more is needed.

Thanks for this!

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-10-15 14:07:13 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


All drones have an optimal and falloff, as well as modules that effect those stats.


Oh, and as a side note, people rarely fire outside of falloff, so max range is almost irrelevant.
You're better off slow boating it towards your target until you're within standard falloff as opposed to firing at falloff +.



There is no point in arguing with a man that has this grasp of the game and his steadfast dedication to his idea. He's clearly invicible.

+1 (good job)


Yeah... not sure where to go with this one.
Don't know if my argument was Leet or if this is a case of an attempt at being facetious.

Either way..... Cool
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#32 - 2015-10-15 14:12:19 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
I have been a drones pilot since day 1 and I have some comments to add to this based on those experiences.
These refer to the appropriate numbered item in the OP post and are not responses to anyone else.

1 - Control range is extremely easy to calculate and never changes unless you change your fit, and it does no vary with the drones in use. Perhaps it is problematic to you because this is all new to you. The only valid reason I can think of for denying this is that no other weapons system has max range data this clearly displayed so why should we drones pilots be given special features. Alter this portion of your idea to make max range just as easy to see for ALL weapons systems and I could support this one, otherwise you are asking for something that benefits drones pilots only and that I will not support.

5 - As long as this applied to salvage drones only I would have no problems with this. However in the current state of the game this would affect all drone types and that would give drones pilots advantages that are not shared by any other weapons system so I have to say no.


Joe Risalo wrote:
Percentage is completely relevant when you can't tell if the drone is damage without locking the drone.
I'm a bit OCD and it's important that my drones are at 100%. If a drone is at 95%, it's hard to tell if it's damage on the drone interface window.

As far as I can tell no other module or weapons system gives the exact percentage of damage taken / left displayed in this clear a fashion, they all have to deal with bar graphs so tell me how and why we as drones pilots deserve to have something better than everyone else?
And yes I am aware that the only damage individual modules / weapons take is damage from overheating but that does not alter the fact that they have to deal with bar graphs and not exact numbers.

Setting that aside if you are OCD about your drones what does it matter if they have taken 2% damage or 4% damage? They are damaged that can easily be seen so rep them that way you know for sure that they are 100%.



hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.

Which is not the same as max range.


and why for drones couldn't max range be included in that info?
Iain Cariaba
#33 - 2015-10-15 16:26:27 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.

Which is not the same as max range.

and why for drones couldn't max range be included in that info?

The proper question is why should CCP code in a hover display for what is a fairly static variable? Once you've trained up the two drone avionics skills, your drone control range does not change without DLAs or the handful of hulls with range bonuses. DLAs give a static increase in control range, and hull bonuses are X km/level
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#34 - 2015-10-15 17:03:37 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.

Which is not the same as max range.

and why for drones couldn't max range be included in that info?

The proper question is why should CCP code in a hover display for what is a fairly static variable? Once you've trained up the two drone avionics skills, your drone control range does not change without DLAs or the handful of hulls with range bonuses. DLAs give a static increase in control range, and hull bonuses are X km/level



well they should put in the dmg of the drones and the other stats to make them at least on par with guns/missiles/ewar and all other mods.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-10-15 17:09:37 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
hover over your guns. they tell you there optimal/falloff and dmg.

Which is not the same as max range.

and why for drones couldn't max range be included in that info?

The proper question is why should CCP code in a hover display for what is a fairly static variable? Once you've trained up the two drone avionics skills, your drone control range does not change without DLAs or the handful of hulls with range bonuses. DLAs give a static increase in control range, and hull bonuses are X km/level



well they should put in the dmg of the drones and the other stats to make them at least on par with guns/missiles/ewar and all other mods.


Basically this.

The hover information is to show optimal, falloff, and dps.
As far as the control range, it would be displayed at the top of the drone control window.

To add to this, I wouldn't mind seeing your lock range added to your hud somewhere. It would be nice to see as well.
I fly many different ships, with many different fits, so it would be nice to know my lock range instead of being annoyed with a pop-up message that I have to trigger 3-4 times in order to read my range. (it's an issue with astigmatism and dyslexia).
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#36 - 2015-10-15 17:21:09 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
]

Basically this.

The hover information is to show optimal, falloff, and dps.
As far as the control range, it would be displayed at the top of the drone control window.

To add to this, I wouldn't mind seeing your lock range added to your hud somewhere. It would be nice to see as well.
I fly many different ships, with many different fits, so it would be nice to know my lock range instead of being annoyed with a pop-up message that I have to trigger 3-4 times in order to read my range. (it's an issue with astigmatism and dyslexia).



if you open the tactical overlay it shows the bubble of what you can target. also will show a bubble for whatever mod you are hovering over if its applicable. not a bad way to see where your bomb will end up.
Iain Cariaba
#37 - 2015-10-16 02:40:43 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
The hover information is to show optimal, falloff, and dps.
As far as the control range, it would be displayed at the top of the drone control window.

Displaying optimal and falloff of drones other than sentry drones is utterly pointless since the drones will always travel to target. Displaying optimal and falloff of sentry drones is also pointless as they are also fairly static variables, with few mods to adjust them, and once you know them, all you need do is remember them.

And, once again, displaying drone control range is also as pointless since you only have to remember a couple numbers. For example, I haven't logged into the game since Sunday, and haven't flown a drone boat since I last left nullsec, yet I know my drone control range on any ship is 54km and that DLA2s add 24km to that range for each I fit. It's not something complicated that needs constantly displayed, it only requires the pilot to learn two base numbers.

Joe Risalo wrote:
To add to this, I wouldn't mind seeing your lock range added to your hud somewhere. It would be nice to see as well.
I fly many different ships, with many different fits, so it would be nice to know my lock range instead of being annoyed with a pop-up message that I have to trigger 3-4 times in order to read my range. (it's an issue with astigmatism and dyslexia).

It is displayed. Turn on your tactical overlay and you'll see a big bubble centered on your ship. This is your lock range. Additionally, it is easily found, even for those with astigmatism and dyslexia, in the fitting window. Look at it and simply remember it for while you're flying that ship.
Renfus
Dread Fleet
Drop Imminent
#38 - 2015-10-18 21:41:10 UTC
I agree with the OP..

Drones need to be looked at..
At Least have better information available in the fittings window and drone info .
Arrow Drone Control Range ( changes depending on your ship / and mods fitted...)
Arrow Drone Targeting ( Maximum & Optimal ) right now drone info only shows optimal.. mainly useful if you are using Sentry drones..
Arrow Drone DPS : this would be tricky.. maybe have it update on the fittings window when you deploy drones ???
you know like your resist stats update in the fittings window when you activate hardeners...

((( Alliance Creation ))) Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++ Contact me In-Game.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-10-18 22:56:46 UTC
Renfus wrote:
I agree with the OP..

Drones need to be looked at..
At Least have better information available in the fittings window and drone info .
Arrow Drone Control Range ( changes depending on your ship / and mods fitted...)
Arrow Drone Targeting ( Maximum & Optimal ) right now drone info only shows optimal.. mainly useful if you are using Sentry drones..
Arrow Drone DPS : this would be tricky.. maybe have it update on the fittings window when you deploy drones ???
you know like your resist stats update in the fittings window when you activate hardeners...


As far as drone DPS, it would be just like hovering over stacked weapons.

It will show you the max potential DPS of the drones in that group.
To make it easy for CCP, I don't think they should have to worry about how many drones are in that group or how many drones you can use/bw/drone sizes.
If the player wants to know the specific dps of a set group of drones, then it's up to the player to create a specific group just for those drones.
Iain Cariaba
#40 - 2015-10-19 00:57:10 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
If the player wants to know the specific dps of a set group of drones, then it's up to the player to create a specific group just for those drones.

You're getting closer. What you should have said was, "If the player wants to know the specific dps of a set of drones, then it's up to the player to put just those drones in his drone bay."
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