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I'm worried for the future of CODE and EVE online.

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#61 - 2015-10-11 15:18:44 UTC
Maekchu wrote:

It's not entirely irrelevant whether an illegal act is "accidental". Ask yourself, who would be the person to do an illegal act in HS by accident? Most likely a complete newbie who does not understand the game mechanics fully. Do you want to punish new players for mistakes, they don't even understand?

Gankers will eventually get to -10 sec, and it doesn't even take that long with the current system. Changing the amount of sec lost, will not change anything. Having more reds to shoot at, does not change the fact, that only a very small group of people actually wants to shoot at them.

Anti-ganking communities could just do what HS mercs do, and wardec all the corps that gank. Then they all are reds to you. But no one will do that, cause the interest of HS players is not in PvP.

This is not a game balance issue, but an issue with highsec players. A nerf to sec status will not change anything to the ganker, but hurt newbies who does not understand game mechanics instead.


A) Its irrelevant whether an illegal act is intentional or "accidental". CONCORD doesnt care. There is no mechanism in EVE where yoy can plead your case, for either. Its entirely abritrary, for everyone. If its an illegal act, its an illegal act. Period.

B) Changing the sec standing loss, will create more red characters, as a result of their crimes, and hence more PvP in HS as players aggress them.

C) There is no "anti-ganking community", largely because many gankers maintain security status sufficient to allat player aggression. Its a cancer. They only have to deal with CONCORD AFTER their aggrression, as PvE, not before, as PvP, by pkayer aggression.

D) This has NOTHING to do with noobs, to their detriment. Its insane to try and claim the actions if illegal INTENTIONAL aggressors are measured against new players:
1) Often, new players are their targets.
2) New players have hardcoded prevention against illegal acts
3)New players start out at 5.0, and can carry the loss of an "accidental" illegal act.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#62 - 2015-10-11 15:21:33 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:

The problem with L4 missions is this:
They are, for the most part, doable in a t1 fitted t1 battleship with skills at III or IV.


that is NOT a problem
unless you are saying that L4 missions should only be available to the leet mlg pr0 players


Well yes, it's not a problem.

The rest of my post shows the nature of the problem.

L4 missions that are doable in t1 fit t1 battleship with skills at IV, are much more easily done in faction fit ships with skills at V, and relevant boosters and implants.

Making the missions harder would do little or nothing to reduce the isk/hour made when doing missions in faction fit ships, but would make them inaccessible to newer players attempting them in t1 fit ships.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#63 - 2015-10-11 15:22:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

3)New players start out at 5.0, and can carry the loss of an "accidental" illegal act.


No, they don't.

They start at 0 sec status.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Salvos Rhoska
#64 - 2015-10-11 15:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Blow up all the ships you want in HS.

No problem. More power to ya.

My point, is that you go red, sooner, faster, for doing so.

This promotes more PvP, in HS, where illegal repeat criminals can then more readily be aggressed.

FacPo is bullshit, and a NPC element.
CONCORD is bullshit, losing your ship is easily measured against the profits from your target.
Both are superficial and PvE elements. **** that.

The quicker illegal acts result in the required -5.0 for PLAYER aggression, the better, so as to return PvP to HS.

Its just stupid that career HS illegal aggrressors can operate under HS security, same as their prey.
The security standing loss is the missing element, especially past -5.0, so that PLAYERS can deal with it pre-emptively, rather than waiting on CONCORDS invariably, systemically, reactive and "too late " response.

This would be GOOD for more PvP.
As a repeat offender, your sec standing should reflect this.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#65 - 2015-10-11 15:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

A) Its irrelevant whether an illegal act is intentional or "accidental". CONCORD doesnt care. There is no mechanism in EVE where yoy can plead your case, for either. Its entirely abritrary, for everyone. If its an illegal act, its an illegal act. Period.

Sure, Concord doesn't care since they are a piece of code in a program. However, CCP as a company cares about not making a change that will be a detriment for possible newcomers to the game. Like I said, the proposed change does not change anything towards the gankers, but are bad for a newbie. Do you want the game to be punishing for a new player? With the recent changes to SP and clones, my guess is that CCP want newbies to have an easier time.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

B) Changing the sec standing loss, will create more red characters, as a result of their crimes, and hence more PvP in HS as players aggress them.

C) There is no "anti-ganking community", largely because many gankers maintain security status sufficient to allat player aggression. Its a cancer. They only have to deal with CONCORD AFTER their aggrression, as PvE, not before, as PvP, by pkayer aggression.

Why would it matter to have more gankers being red, if there are no one willing to shoot at them? The two statements above contradicts themselves. You first claim that you want more targets that are legal in HS, but then claim there is no "anti-ganking" community. So who would benefit from more reds in HS?
Again, changing the amount of sec lost does not change anything, if no one is willing to use that to their advantage. On top of that, you can completely ignore all these mechanics with a wardec. But yet, no one is willing to do that.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

D) This has NOTHING to do with noobs, to their detriment. Its insane to try and claim the actions if illegal INTENTIONAL aggressors are measured against new players:
1) Often, new players are their targets.
2) New players have hardcoded prevention against illegal acts
3)New players start out at 5.0, and can carry the loss of an "accidental" illegal act.

The last statement just show me how little you actually know. From where did you get the idea that new players start with 5.0 sec status?
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-10-11 15:38:40 UTC
That CODE can be used as an example is all the evidence required to conclude control of the game has been forfeited to the audience by the artist. (God love art lovers. They buy my paintings, but I'll be godammed if a viewer gets to touch MY canvas with a brush!)

It's impossible to disguise your activities when their result is on public display, or available for public use. Just by reading the negative space surrounding the silhouette provides more than enough information to the practiced eye. It's been evident for some time more attention is being paid to surface matters, and core matters seem too challenging. (I've stepped on a few toes here and provoked an authoritative response, so I won't go into further detail here.)

Even the increased presence on the other social media (the haunts of particular players) and the fading of the same presence here is evidence that the pilots seem to have forgotten where to find the wheelhouse. I've always said owners have the right to deal with their property how they see fit. However, in so doing they must live with the consequences. Personally, disloyalty is at the top of my sh*t list.

EVERY game out there has undergone radical transformation. It may even be a Chicken Little world response to an imagined threat. It may be real reaction to real bottom line threat...we (the peoples) have no way of knowing as corporations believe their attorneys and opt for an insular interface with the public (a word that depersonalizes the customer.)

The justification of meeting shareholder needs first becomes the mantra. Given this, "our" input automatically doesn't require serious attention. It's only when that bottom line becomes affected belated response is hurled into the mix, heavily sodden with promises, excuses and rationalized justifications.

There is no way of knowing if the "new" business model of free-to-play micro transactions was a remedy that was even required, much less if the need wasn't imagined the remedy became the cure. It's impossible for the players to know with certainty that their suggestions will actually have the effect they insist will result.

This is why the artist should be left to create the work. The viewers, or users, express judgement with their interest. EVE management can be proud to have been the recipients of a level of loyalty unsurpassed by any game. Their creation has been regaled with a phenominal array of third party support programming, and sympathetic web presence. So, it can be deduced there has always been a there there with EVE.

Nobody can be expected to be perfect. Even our beloved devs can attest to that, and of course over a protracted period of time (such has been the life of EVE) there was plenty of room for error. That the game still exists in the dynamic form it does attests to the fact what mistakes there have been have not been fatal. (Thanks Captain Obvious.) All this to say the artists have proven time and time again they are worthy of trust and confidence.

TL;DR (To conclude:) Rather than allowing the vagaries of public opinion steer the ship, may the artists paint the canvas as they see fit. We'll find what we're looking for there, even if it's something we've never seen before. That is, after all, the true appeal of EVE Online. (This post isn't CODE for anything.)



There just isn't anything that can be said!

Salvos Rhoska
#67 - 2015-10-11 15:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu:

List and explain your reasons why not to implement my proposal of an increased sec standing negative modifier on illegal acts in HS.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#68 - 2015-10-11 15:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Wendrika Hydreiga
Maekchu wrote:
The last statement just show me how little you actually know. From where did you get the idea that new players start with 5.0 sec status?


Probably because the common newbie's first motivation when starting their career in EVE Online usually doesn't fall on shooting freighters or industrial ships (or anything that moves) for the schadenfreude of it. They often elect themselves to honest activities that give a slow but steady increases in their security status.

Probably since people don't see many bonafide new players in Nullsec because of their habit of turning to fine red mist arbitarily, so the few ones that do visit Nullsec are already estabilished with ISK and ships obtained in Highsec, so they are naturally high in their security status!

Logic!
Matrea D
Maggie's Magical Miners
#69 - 2015-10-11 15:50:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
We have established, that an increase in sec standing modifier for illegal acts in HS:
A)Does not effect existing -10 sec characters. They are obviously already bottomed out. Doesnt affect them at all.
B) Its irrelevant whether an illegal act is "accidental" or intentional. EVE doesnt care. Its illegal, period.
C) As a result of increased sec standing loss for illegal acts, PvP is increased by a factor of more red targets in HS.

Its a simple and functional solution, concudive to more player cobtent, ship destruction and helps relegate that in HS away from CONCORDS reaction (as PvE)to player action (as PvP).


Nobody shoots reds but facpo anyway. All this does is increase NPC activity, not PvP.
Salvos Rhoska
#70 - 2015-10-11 15:53:19 UTC
Matrea D wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
We have established, that an increase in sec standing modifier for illegal acts in HS:
A)Does not effect existing -10 sec characters. They are obviously already bottomed out. Doesnt affect them at all.
B) Its irrelevant whether an illegal act is "accidental" or intentional. EVE doesnt care. Its illegal, period.
C) As a result of increased sec standing loss for illegal acts, PvP is increased by a factor of more red targets in HS.

Its a simple and functional solution, concudive to more player cobtent, ship destruction and helps relegate that in HS away from CONCORDS reaction (as PvE)to player action (as PvP).


Nobody shoots reds but facpo anyway. All this does is increase NPC activity, not PvP.


Why does nobody else shoot at reds?
Maekchu
Doomheim
#71 - 2015-10-11 15:54:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu:

Explain your reasons why not to implement my proposal of an increased sec standing negative modifier on illegal acts in HS.

If you had read and understood my posts, you would know what my reasons are.

But I'll repeat it again... Just for you.

I don't see that your proposal of an increased sec standing loss on illegal acts would change anything to the current ganking situation in HS. If anything, it might have a detrimental effect towards new players who might make mistakes because of not understanding game mechanics.
Again, changes that can be a detriment for players who do not understand game mechanics are bad. It is not gankers who shoot stuff in highsec by mistake, but newbies who just push buttons, trying to figure out the game.

The reason why I don't see this having any effect at all, is that getting faster below -5.0 sec will not change the fact, that no one is willing to properly take actions against the ganking community. Many gankers are at -10 anyway and use alts for scouting. On top of that, all these mechanics can be completely ignored with a wardec on the major ganking alliances.

However, no one from the highsec carebearing community takes action and instead are crying to CCP for changes.

Basically, in the best scenario, this change have no impact on the game, because of the mindset of highseccers. You cannot balance out the mindset of a person.

In the worst scenario, this change have negative impact on newer players. Which is bad for the game and not in the interest of CCP.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2015-10-11 15:54:59 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:

The problem with L4 missions is this:
They are, for the most part, doable in a t1 fitted t1 battleship with skills at III or IV.


that is NOT a problem
unless you are saying that L4 missions should only be available to the leet mlg pr0 players


Well yes, it's not a problem.

The rest of my post shows the nature of the problem.

L4 missions that are doable in t1 fit t1 battleship with skills at IV, are much more easily done in faction fit ships with skills at V, and relevant boosters and implants.

Making the missions harder would do little or nothing to reduce the isk/hour made when doing missions in faction fit ships, but would make them inaccessible to newer players attempting them in t1 fit ships.


Low hanging fruit here is to make missions unblitzable.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#73 - 2015-10-11 15:56:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Why does nobody else shoot at reds?


If you saw an old lady being mugged on the street, would you attack the mugger?

Same principle, it's a "it's not my problem, so meh" type of reaction.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#74 - 2015-10-11 16:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
The last statement just show me how little you actually know. From where did you get the idea that new players start with 5.0 sec status?


Probably because the common newbie's first motivation when starting their career in EVE Online usually doesn't fall on shooting freighters or industrial ships (or anything that moves) for the schadenfreude of it. They often elect themselves to honest activities that give a slow but steady increases in their security status.

Probably since people don't see many bonafide new players in Nullsec because of their habit of turning to fine red mist arbitarily, so the few ones that do visit Nullsec are already estabilished with ISK and ships obtained in Highsec, so they are naturally high in their security status!

Logic!

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of a "new player".

A new player is not someone who has spent time grinding up sec status to 5.0. Getting to a sec status of 5.0 with lvl1, 2 or even 3 missions is not an easy task and takes time. By the time someone gets to 5.0, I would not consider them a "new player".

A "New player" is someone who have just started playing EvE with a completely new character with no prior knowledge of the game. I don't understand why you are even arguing that 5.0 somehow is what a new player would have for sec. It is a fact, that every character starts at 0 sec status. It is not unrealistic, that a new player just joining the game, would by accident shoot someone and get concorded.

The latter player, is the one I don't want to be punished for mechanics they don't even understand. Not the lvl4 mission grinding or incursion running player, that somehow some people consider as "new players".
Salvos Rhoska
#75 - 2015-10-11 16:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:
If you had read and understood my posts, you would know what my reasons are.


Same goes for you. Either you didnt read them, understand them, our ignored them.

Ive already debunked and addressed your points as irrelevant.

Has nothing to do with -10 characters, and nothing to do with "accidental" noobs.

If you had read and understood my posts, which apparently you havent, you would see this readily.

There is no reason not to increase the sec status malus for HS illegal actions.
There are only the benefits, which (connivingly and dishonestly) you never addressed.
Salvos Rhoska
#76 - 2015-10-11 16:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Why does nobody else shoot at reds?


If you saw an old lady being mugged on the street, would you attack the mugger?

Same principle, it's a "it's not my problem, so meh" type of reaction.


False analogy.
Although I do get what you mean.

You are confusing intervening in a criminal act, with attacking and subduing a known criminal.

It someone is red, I dont have to care about anything else. I can readily **** them up, anyways and always.

Do you see the difference?

If someone is red in HS, they are free game, for everyone.
Typically, as they walk down the street, anyone can stab them in the throat or pound their head to mash against a curb, without legal recourse against them.

Red is KOS. I can do whatever I want to them. Same as everywhere in space regarding a red.
Sasha Nyemtsov
Doomheim
#77 - 2015-10-11 16:12:32 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu:

List and explain your reasons why not to implement my proposal of an increased sec standing negative modifier on illegal acts in HS.


Ah, Salvos!

That name! Is it Latin (Save)?; or the plural of 'Salvo', perhaps?

Never mind.

Pomposity and arrogance are the twin characteristics most likely to inflame these hallowed Forums. For Mr Veers Belvar, add ignorance (shudder - where did he go?).

Beware the temptation to stray into their path.

Actually, I do pomposity rather well, and arrogance even better, but with me they remain transient characteristics, delivered with tongue firmly in cheek (buccal, of course). They are not burnt-in self-deception.

If you have the merest shred of confidence in your 'proposal', pray flaunt it in the Features and Ideas sub-Forum, where it will no doubt gain the delighted and eternally grateful attention of CCP and CSM alike. You placed it here in order to stir trouble, sir, and you've been found out.

If you believe your 'proposal' to be reasonable but reject out of hand any counter to it, then you clearly aren't interested in a 'discussion', as such, but only in parading your aggrandizing peacock-self before the good and humble folk of this chamber.

Best you leave now sir, 'ere what remains of the tatters of your self-respect follows your 'proposal' into oblivion.


Indahmawar Fazmarai
#78 - 2015-10-11 16:15:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
(...)
C) There is no "anti-ganking community", largely because many gankers maintain security status sufficient to allat player aggression. Its a cancer. They only have to deal with CONCORD AFTER their aggrression, as PvE, not before, as PvP, by pkayer aggression.

(..)


Bullshit. I haven't seen any ganker with a sec status above -10.0. Roll
Maekchu
Doomheim
#79 - 2015-10-11 16:16:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Ive already debunked and addressed your points as irrelevant.

No you haven't :D But in your mind you have, cause the way you argue is only acknowledging your own argument, ignoring whatever alien opinion that comes your way.
But if you have debunked my arguments, then you should have no problem answering the following question:

1. What does an increase in sec status penalty add, in terms of game mechanics, that the current system does not have?

2. How would your proposition, somehow change the PvP mindset of highsec players?

3. New players that do, by mistake, shoot someone else in higsec could be very punishing. Considering they either have to spend lots of time grinding it back or sec tags (tags which are very expensive for new players). Can you elaborate in detail to what your reasons are, that this issue can just be ignored? Other, than just stating that it can.

Salvos Rhoska
#80 - 2015-10-11 16:22:20 UTC
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:
Respect and adulation of my qualities


As you state, I clearly understand whats going on and am much better at spinning the issues than you are.

Why have I not yet received a recruitement offer?

Prices are negotiable, against benefits.

Im streamrolling your best here, and planting seeds of dissent in many readers.
Wouldnt you rather make an ally and friend of me, rather deal with the groundswell of problems and awareness I am causing you?