EVE General Discussion

That's some serious mental gymnastics right there.

Nah it makes total sense. It's like water is blue and the sky is blue. Water is wet, therefor the sky must be wet.

While I agree that the level of twister put the body of his premise in a pretzel upon itself...

One can make a darn good argument that ganking an AFK hauler is no more pvP than someone mining out a belt before another miner can log in for the day.

There literally is no "player" there to gank, just his assets.

I would still consider that pvp but I can see how some might not.

Now the response by Concord is 100% PVE, that much is true.

The illegal aggression from your first post is not CONCORD.

That's a player attacking another player.

CONCORD doesn't get involved until after that. Hence my question.

In your haste to dismiss gankers/ganking you also dismissed the gank victims as being less than other players.

I'm sure they don't consider themselves that way.

I'm sure that many of the players you claim to want to protect from the predations of other players will pleased to learn that you consider them to be inferior.

If they are sitting in a non-combat ship they can hardly be defined as superior in terms of PvP

I wonder.

Back in the day, Villains were indeed a motor. People hated Nullsec Empires, Wardeccers, Gankers and Pirates, but at least they thought, that they can hurt them back and in some cases, they actually could. Today, I am not so sure about this. Which one of the "bad guys" can you still hurt? Code fly around in cheap-****, and they go pop anyway on their own. Marmite just go dock, if faced with something that could realistically stand a chance of killing their 1M EHP brick proteus with neutral logi support, and even if they didn't, they probably don't care much about that one loss every odd month. Nullsec stopped mattering, so most people don't care about that anymore either. And unless we **** things up ourselves, we are pretty difficult to hit where it hurts as well.

The game has gotten too transparent and calculable, I think, and the players have become too good at this game. Most people know what they are doing, and what the outcome will be.

When we decide to go to providence and destroy every single IHUB, we know we will. Yeah, we missed a few, and that was like what? 10% variance. Who cares?

When Miniluv sets out to kill a freighter, that freighter will die.

The freighter pilot on the other hand knows he will get ganked at some point, but he's still making more money than he can use.

When the GRRGOONS! People set out to do GRRGOONS stuff, I'm sure they know the outcome as well, but kudos for trying.

When a Missionrunner does his missions, he'll know how much money he will make. In FW, you win some, you lose some, but Money's rolling in no matter what.

Major Nullsec Blocs have left Null, not mainly because they were beaten, but because they got bored. "Didn't want that Sov anyway", and serious about it. Eve has become a game without losers. And winning loses all meaning, when losing is not a thing.

What's more - everything is accessible to everyone. High sec corps dreaming of the big move to nullsec one day? Not a thing anymore. If they want to go to Null, they do. Fleets that go on Wormhole excursions, not knowing what they are doing? Not a thing. There's no sense of wonder and no possibility for surprise. Been there, done that, nothing left to do.

No it's not, that's just the excuse they use. At the end of the day, ganking is still vastly in favour of the ganker over the anti-ganker, it's low risk high reward. What they don't like is that changes get made that balance them out, and they completely ingore changes that benefit them. Even indirect, minor changes they scream about as if they are the worst nerfs ever to hit an EVE player. Even if no changes were ever made, their claims would remain the same, because what they want is stupidly easy methods of generating tears.

It's considerably worse than it used to be.

It's not a drastic change in status quoo, the only drastic change was that wardec limits were effectively removed, allowing people to wardec hundreds of corps at a time. But the fact that they can cause this to happen is evidence enough that they need to be brought down a bit. If CCP want it to be pure PvP, then remove PvE. It seems ******** to chime on abut how people joining corps boosts retention, yet have a mechanic that prevents any decently sized corp that isn't pure PvP from existing in highsec.

Of course you do, because you're happy with the game being primarily griefers. Honestly, I think if you get home from work (or the job center) and the only thing that will entertain you is knowing that you can wind up some random on a game then you have issues. I'm all for competition in games, but it has to be balanced. Continuing to allow bored veterans to mindlessly remove entertainment from paying players for literally no reason other than they can isn't exactly the best move for the long term health of the game.

One can't win Eve. There is no one global victory condition, no outro, no end credits and the game does not end. If there was, and Goons would have won the game, as you claim, the game would be over and a new round would start.

One can only "win" based on one's own personal victory conditions. Most people in Eve these days know very well what they can do and what they can't, and they are setting their victory conditions accordingly. People know, they can make a bajillion ISK/h, so they do. They also know they can't kill that one Marmite guy on the undock, so they don't try. There is not a lot of "maybe" in there, especially on actions that would be worth taking that risk.

I'd say this is mostly due to the age of the game. Many people have been playing for years and simply know wtf. Those who don't learn pretty quickly from those who do. However, the game has gotten a lot more clear on it's rules: People know exactly how long CONCORDs response time is in any system, under any given conditions. They know, how long burning down a region will take, because there's a fixed timer on everything related to Sov now. They know who can shoot who in High sec, because we have nice differently colored timers for everything, with a tooltip on mouseover. Accidents with Highsec Aggression can barely happen these days thanks to the safety switch. They even know when exactly their Gate cloak will expire, because the game shows a timer for it.

On the surface, all those little things are simply good game design. However, back in the day, people got into Eve despite, the bad game design. I'd even go so far to say they got into it because of the bad game design. All those terrible interfaces and arcane rules are great content drivers. Unpaid sov bills, Can flipping, Corp theft ... all those things happened at least partly because somebody clicked something wrong or because they misinterpreted or simply didn't know the rules.

Remember the days when you had to wait a minute before you could re-dock after docking? When there were stations that would spit you out, not giving you the chance to redock before you left docking range? You had to know in what kind of station you were sitting, when enemies were waiting outside.

Those arcane rules and bad interfaces were also an equalizer of sorts. Yeah, you may not stand a chance against that guy, but there's a good chance he'd make a mistake.

As it is right now, many of those rules are very clear, and everybody either knows them anyway or can see them printed out on the screen. Everybody can gauge very accurately what will happen if he did something, and how the outcome would be.

On the Nullsec side of things: New structures or no - people know that the Imperium would crush them in a few days, if it wanted to, so they don't even try. First, it was the big bad ~Apex force~. That's gone now. However, one doesn't need it anymore anyway, it has been replaced by Interceptors (or T2/T3 Cruisers, if serious) which don't suffer Jump Fatique and can simply be replaced. No need for a supply line, simply buy your siege gear on the market.

Yes you can. The player base decided that goons won Eve. The CFC train made use of the mechanics and achieved a force that was not able to be countered by the way other players, played. As such, wars in null security stopped. The only big fights became artificial.

That is why all the major changes over the past while with sov and capship mechanics. The existing ones resulted in the whole of eve under an occupation by the former CFC. For all intents and purposes, an earned victory. One that resulted in drastic mechanics changes.

The game did end for all intents and purposes, well endgame did. Farming of PvE I would not consider a direction of a victory. The community on the whole acknowledged the win by packing up and leaving null security. Everything else in eve only was there because it was not considered important.