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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hyperdunking nerf on sisi, to the battlements!

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Author
Toxic Yaken
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#721 - 2015-10-31 00:47:28 UTC
Tyyler DURden wrote:
Thanks for all the reply's about the Concord pulling mechanic.
In Faylee's situation however I doubt ccp cares whether or not the recycled character in question was a "ganker alt " or a Concord pulling alt. I certainly don't see any distinction when it comes to recycling character's with neg sec status.


Very true, though I think the point being made is that you don't need to have a high sec status for the puller or ganker for hyperdunking, so why even recycle the alts?

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Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#722 - 2015-10-31 15:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
What if below a certain sec status you get a permanent Suspect flag in high sec? Similar to the Criminal flag of -5.0, as system security drops, so does the minimum suspect threshold. For example, anything below 0.0 but above -2.0 in a 1.0 system will flag you with a suspect flag. CONCORD would not attack or hinder you, but players might, opening up a limited engagement.

The downside to this that I can see currently is that it would flip the script and force gankers on the defensive/reactive as they wouldn't be able to fire first without eliciting further CONCORD response. Then again, gankers obviously don't care about sec status loss from aggression anyway. Then again, if that's the only change, gankers would still get CONCORD'd for firing first while also being vulnerable to all, which I can see as being bad gameplay. Then again, this could push a large portion of the player base into low sec. But then again.... Roll

NVM, too many variables.
Mevath Sagald
Doomheim
#723 - 2015-10-31 15:54:33 UTC
Zirashi wrote:
What if below a certain sec status you get a permanent Suspect flag in high sec? Similar to the Criminal flag of -5.0, as system security drops, so does the minimum suspect threshold. For example, anything below 0.0 but above -2.0 in a 1.0 system will flag you with a suspect flag. CONCORD would not attack or hinder you, but players might, opening up a limited engagement.

The downside to this that I can see currently is that it would flip the script and force gankers on the defensive/reactive as they wouldn't be able to fire first without eliciting further CONCORD response. Then again, gankers obviously don't care about sec status loss from aggression anyway. Then again, if that's the only change, gankers would still get CONCORD'd for firing first while also being vulnerable to all, which I can see as being bad gameplay. Then again, this could push a large portion of the player base into low sec. But then again.... Roll

NVM, too many variables.

As said before gankers do not care about sec status and any change on it will have zero effect. And your change basically means instead of free to shoot @ -5.0 free to shoot at @ -X.0, well gankers wont care and not gonna be on the "reactive" or "defensive"
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#724 - 2015-10-31 16:01:12 UTC
Mevath Sagald wrote:
Zirashi wrote:
What if below a certain sec status you get a permanent Suspect flag in high sec? Similar to the Criminal flag of -5.0, as system security drops, so does the minimum suspect threshold. For example, anything below 0.0 but above -2.0 in a 1.0 system will flag you with a suspect flag. CONCORD would not attack or hinder you, but players might, opening up a limited engagement.

The downside to this that I can see currently is that it would flip the script and force gankers on the defensive/reactive as they wouldn't be able to fire first without eliciting further CONCORD response. Then again, gankers obviously don't care about sec status loss from aggression anyway. Then again, if that's the only change, gankers would still get CONCORD'd for firing first while also being vulnerable to all, which I can see as being bad gameplay. Then again, this could push a large portion of the player base into low sec. But then again.... Roll

NVM, too many variables.

As said before gankers do not care about sec status and any change on it will have zero effect. And your change basically means instead of free to shoot @ -5.0 free to shoot at @ -X.0, well gankers wont care and not gonna be on the "reactive" or "defensive"
Mostly because hardly anybody will shoot at them.

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Mevath Sagald
Doomheim
#725 - 2015-10-31 16:05:46 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mostly because hardly anybody will shoot at them.

That is not our problem :)
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#726 - 2015-10-31 17:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mostly because they will use all available mechanics to deny the opportunity to people to shoot at them before they land at their gank target.


There, fixed that for you.

Also, from Parallax patch notes:
"A character with a criminal flag in a high-sec system is no longer able to board/switch ships whilst in space."

Hi-five all around boys. Not that this is the change that we need, but the whining will be nice either way.
Now if only CCP, in addition to this change, also denied ability to criminally flagged (not criminal sec status) chars to undock in a ship, warp in a pod and use stargates in hisec, that would be quite sweet :).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#727 - 2015-10-31 17:29:06 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mostly because they will use all available mechanics to deny the opportunity to people to shoot at them before they land at their gank target.


There, fixed that for you.
Your "fix" doesn't make it any less true, very few people bother to shoot at criminals and suspects regardless of whether or not the available mechanics are used to prevent them from doing so.

Quote:
Also, from Parallax patch notes:
"A character with a criminal flag in a high-sec system is no longer able to board/switch ships whilst in space."

Hi-five all around boys. Not that this is the change that we need, but the whining will be nice either way.
There's not that many hyperdunkers so the change won't affect many gankers; they'll just keep on throwing ships at stuff.
Quote:
Now if only CCP, in addition to this change, also denied ability to criminally flagged (not criminal sec status) chars to undock in a ship, warp in a pod and use stargates in hisec, that would be quite sweet :).
*shakes head sadly* You weren't doing too badly, and then this..

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#728 - 2015-10-31 17:41:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mostly because they will use all available mechanics to deny the opportunity to people to shoot at them before they land at their gank target.


There, fixed that for you.
Your "fix" doesn't make it any less true, very few people bother to shoot at criminals and suspects regardless of whether or not the available mechanics are used to prevent them from doing so.

Quote:
Also, from Parallax patch notes:
"A character with a criminal flag in a high-sec system is no longer able to board/switch ships whilst in space."

Hi-five all around boys. Not that this is the change that we need, but the whining will be nice either way.
There's not that many hyperdunkers so the change won't affect many gankers; they'll just keep on throwing ships at stuff.
Quote:
Now if only CCP, in addition to this change, also denied ability to criminally flagged (not criminal sec status) chars to undock in a ship, warp in a pod and use stargates in hisec, that would be quite sweet :).
*shakes head sadly* You weren't doing too badly, and then this..


Hey, if gankers from large groups are allowed to whine and complain asking for silly stuff, so can the other side, no? P
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#729 - 2015-10-31 18:36:59 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Hey, if gankers from large groups are allowed to whine and complain asking for silly stuff, so can the other side, no? P


Asking CCP to stop tilting things even further in favour of whinebears is not the same as whining and asking for silly stuff.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#730 - 2015-10-31 19:04:36 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Hey, if gankers from large groups are allowed to whine and complain asking for silly stuff, so can the other side, no? P


Asking CCP to stop tilting things even further in favour of whinebears is not the same as whining and asking for silly stuff.


Are you afraid they might tilt it further? Should I talk more about it? Beacuse, boy do I have some cool ideas you'd hate. Lol
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#731 - 2015-10-31 19:06:44 UTC
Not hate, just think incredibly silly. Of course, you have a reputation for wanting an incredibly unbalanced game in your favour, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that your ideas are bonkers.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Toxic Yaken
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#732 - 2015-10-31 19:09:04 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Hey, if gankers from large groups are allowed to whine and complain asking for silly stuff, so can the other side, no? P


Asking CCP to stop tilting things even further in favour of whinebears is not the same as whining and asking for silly stuff.


Are you afraid they might tilt it further? Should I talk more about it? Beacuse, boy do I have some cool ideas you'd hate. Lol


I'm interested, tell me more.

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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#733 - 2015-10-31 21:01:35 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Not hate, just think incredibly silly. Of course, you have a reputation for wanting an incredibly unbalanced game in your favour, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that your ideas are bonkers.


Please do tell about my 'incredibly unbalanced' proposals while you bump freighters without reasonable conuters, can't be intercepted while traveling to freighters in hi-sec while using -10 chars and then safely loot wrecks. Do tell, please.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone (in code) thinks my ideas are bonkers. However, it seems that tilting is stronger then your opinions.
Saskia Laru
Saskia Laru Trading Corporation
#734 - 2015-10-31 21:07:04 UTC
Looks like someone has been into the "koolaid" again. Roll
Mag's
Azn Empire
#735 - 2015-10-31 21:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Not hate, just think incredibly silly. Of course, you have a reputation for wanting an incredibly unbalanced game in your favour, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that your ideas are bonkers.


Please do tell about my 'incredibly unbalanced' proposals while you bump freighters without reasonable conuters, can't be intercepted while traveling to freighters in hi-sec while using -10 chars and then safely loot wrecks. Do tell, please.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone (in code) thinks my ideas are bonkers. However, it seems that tilting is stronger then your opinions.
Without reasonable counters?

Well yes the use of one friend to give a freighter almost guaranteed safe passage, does at first glance look unreasonable. But it's a long standing use of the web mechanics and the majority are fine with it's use, so I'm not sure I agree with you.

Don't some AG peeps shoot wrecks? I'm sure I read one of them boasting about it and I think that's also a fine use of mechanics.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mevath Sagald
Doomheim
#736 - 2015-10-31 21:14:07 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#737 - 2015-10-31 21:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Mag's wrote:
Without reasonable counters?

Well yes the use of one friend to give a freighter almost guaranteed safe passage, does at first glance look unreasonable. But it's a long standing use of the web mechanics and the majority are fine with it's use, so I'm not sure I agree with you.

Don't some AG peeps shoot wrecks? I'm sure I read one of them boasting about it and I think that's also a fine use of mechanics.


Using webber alt can be easily countered (as codies illustrated many times), and once freighter is being bumped the only reliable counter is ganking the bumper. Everything else is extremely situation and not nearly as effective as bumping, with bumper not risking much. However, we've had this conversation too many times, excuse me for not being in the mood to repeat same old things for the 10th time.

Furthermore, I was sarcastic with those ideas about criminal chars, although now that I think, they might be good since all the amount of whining coming from codies would be marvelous.

As for the rest - my actual proposals regarding freighter ganking are basically focused on two things - providing reliable counter to bumping (once bumps land) through active gameplay, without requiring gank of the bumper and removing safe looting mechanics. This can be easily checked if you read my previous posts. Pretty much that.
If that somehow makes ganking freighters 'incredibly unbalanced' then my judgment is incredibly distorted due to being with AG for too long. However, I don't think anything there is even close to incredible imbalance, but there is a lot of what codies like to often do - incredibly spin and distort other people's words.

Now if we were to talk about how to make codies foam around their mouths, we could talk about:
- making freighters more resilient (give them more EHP's to start with, something similar to base carrier EHP since they are similar in resource requirements and costs)
- provide them with native MJD capabilities
- do all of my sarcastic proposals
- remove tags for sec status
- completely remove the ability of -5 and below chars to move in anything other then shuttles/pods in hisec (with appropriate changes to sec status mechanics)
- further increase CONCORD response times
- do not apply criminal agression to extention of logoff timers in hisec
- remove insurance from suspect chars in hisec
- prevent ability of suspects to reship in space in hisec etc.
None of these things would remove ability to gank, it would only make more costly and complicated to perform.
Furthermore, do note - except for maybe suspect changes, I DO NOT ADVOCATE ANY OF THE ABOVE CHANGES, but considering how aggressive and intolerant of different opinions codies are in protecting everything about their gameplay, I wouldn't object much if they were implemented.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#738 - 2015-10-31 21:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Using webber alt can be easily countered (as codies illustrated many times)

Uh, no. Hands down the most tense point on the entire gank process is landing the initial bump. Jumping bumpers into a system, overheating mwd's, and then waiting for the freighter to appear out of gate cloak. Once it's visible there's frantic calls to yell if you've landed a bump, and then either wild jubilation when someone makes contact, or sighs of disappointment when webs land and it escapes. This of course assumes the target isn't autopilotimg, has webs, and had cargo worth a damn.

As a side note, using a jump freighter and caring fuel should avoid the whole process.

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#739 - 2015-10-31 22:05:03 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Without reasonable counters?

Well yes the use of one friend to give a freighter almost guaranteed safe passage, does at first glance look unreasonable. But it's a long standing use of the web mechanics and the majority are fine with it's use, so I'm not sure I agree with you.

Don't some AG peeps shoot wrecks? I'm sure I read one of them boasting about it and I think that's also a fine use of mechanics.


Using webber alt can be easily countered (as codies illustrated many times), and once freighter is being bumped the only reliable counter is ganking the bumper. Everything else is extremely situation and not nearly as effective as bumping, with bumper not risking much. However, we've had this conversation too many times, excuse me for not being in the mood to repeat same old things for the 10th time.
I may have responded to you once or twice before, but I don't believe we've had this conversation 'many times'

You should be able to counter the use of a webber alt. I'm glad is not totally guaranteed. If it was, I would agree webbing is unreasonable. But it's very effective and only takes one friend. Awesome.

The CODE may have countered webbers and I'm sure you have proof of that. But then I'm also sure they have failed to counter many more. Conjecture in this, is hardly a way to decide on how easy it is. Or isn't

I didn't read the rest, it looked like you went into rant mode. Sorry.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#740 - 2015-10-31 22:13:31 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Using webber alt can be easily countered (as codies illustrated many times)

Uh, no. Hands down the most tense point on the entire gank process is landing the initial bump. Jumping bumpers into a system, overheating mwd's, and then waiting for the freighter to appear out of gate cloak. Once it's visible there's frantic calls to yell if you've landed a bump, and then either wild jubilation when someone makes contact, or sighs of disappointment when webs land and it escapes. This of course assumes the target isn't autopilotimg, has webs, and had cargo worth a damn.

As a side note, using a jump freighter and caring fuel should avoid the whole process.


Suicide blackbirds seem to do the counter-webber trick often enough though.