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What would you do with forty thousand slaves?

Author
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#41 - 2015-10-06 21:04:03 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
So far I have fifty thousand slaves loaded up to send to Nauplius. So that's my answer.

Usually, a story of unrequited love tugs at my heart at least a little.

This time, not so much.


We're adopting Ria Nieyli.


You're most certainly not!
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-10-06 21:34:14 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
So far I have fifty thousand slaves loaded up to send to Nauplius. So that's my answer.

Usually, a story of unrequited love tugs at my heart at least a little.

This time, not so much.


We're adopting Ria Nieyli.


You're most certainly not!

The adoption papers have already been processed by the Bleeders of the Blood Raider Covenant. So by Covenant law, yes, you are our daughter.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2015-10-06 21:35:07 UTC
Sadly there are no laws that bind capsuleers to ethical treatment of prisoners of war. Why do you think Concord prohibits Escape Pod beacons from appearing on our HUDs?

The closest thing to law is the scorn that non-capsuleer members of a capsuleer's adopted culture will generally hold them in for abusing POWs.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Sahriah BloodStone
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#44 - 2015-10-06 21:57:35 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


Who said anything about my conscience? My options are pretty simple: I can give them my money. I can't give them my time. Ain't got more than a few moments to spare, here and there.


To clarify, I was speaking in general terms, not specifically making an assumption about you and your motives. There are many individuals that are happy to throw money at a situation because they are unwilling to admit the problem is not worth their time. It makes them feel better about it.


Arrendis wrote:
Neither you, nor anyone else, have the right to take it from them in the first place. They've earned it by simply being alive.


The question lacks the context of how we are acquiring these slaves, but it does state that they are already slaves. I would have not taken anything from them that they had not already lost, I would simply be offering them a way out by becoming productive members of society, a much better solution than throwing a lot of money at them and encouraging them to do absolutely nothing productive for the rest of their lives.

In fact the question does not even specify the condition of the stock, its health or education. My stock would be trained, educated and given a proper basis for continuing life. You would be potentially releasing uneducated masses with a lot of money into society, and you don't see a problem with that? Please don't try to take the moral high ground when you don't properly think through the situation.

We cultivate weakness in the name of doing 'good' and ultimately harm ourselves because of it. Why tolerate those that refuse to use life as it is given to them? That refuse to strive to be the best human they can be? I'm not saying slaughter them all, I'm not Naup, I am simply saying that those who refuse, or lack the will to contribute have no place in this society.


Arrendis wrote:

So again: you simply must tell me how you manage to get more seconds in a day. Because when you're talking about getting other people to do the processing for you? You're still just throwing money at it, and not doing a damned thing yourself. At least I'm being honest about it. Would it sit better with you if I'd said 'pay someone a million ISK a head to process them and get them settled somewhere'? Because that isn't just begging for some corrupt little bastard to line his pockets without taking care of them at all, right?


Learning when and where to delegate resources is a very useful trait. Without going too in depth, as you clearly have limited time, I will simply say that I assign tasks to those in my employ and usually only make the top level decisions. It does not take too much effort to tell someone to go and formulate a plan to deal with the problem and report back. Of course you could say that it does indeed leave room for corruption, or that I am simply throwing money at the situation myself, but I consider the processing and education of the stock to ensure they become productive members of society once freed to be extremely far removed from making them rich and releasing them instantly. I also find it important enough that I am willing to put aside at least a small amount of time to ensure the process is done correctly, or barring that, that the stock are transferred to somebody I trust that does have the time.

I realize that you are Minmatar and that the subject of slaves may be a sensitive one, but try not to take my opinion as a judgement on your time or abilities, I was simply disagreeing with your thought process.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Arrendis
TK Corp
#45 - 2015-10-06 23:26:18 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:

In fact the question does not even specify the condition of the stock, its health or education. My stock would be trained, educated and given a proper basis for continuing life. You would be potentially releasing uneducated masses with a lot of money into society, and you don't see a problem with that? Please don't try to take the moral high ground when you don't properly think through the situation.


The education you choose for them, and you don't see a problem with that. Please don't try to tell me I haven't properly thought through the situation when you clearly haven't the first clue what I have or haven't thought of.

It's not your place to decide if anyone has 'earned' their freedom. They're not your stock. They're people. They belong to themselves, and no-one else. And the decisions you have the right to make for them are the decisions they choose to ask you to make, and not a single one more.

Quote:

We cultivate weakness in the name of doing 'good' and ultimately harm ourselves because of it. Why tolerate those that refuse to use life as it is given to them? That refuse to strive to be the best human they can be? I'm not saying slaughter them all, I'm not Naup, I am simply saying that those who refuse, or lack the will to contribute have no place in this society.


Because you are not a god. You are no better than the least of them. They don't have the right to judge your fitness to live, and you don't have the right to choose theirs. Period. When you can give them back the time a slave has had taken from them, the emotional well-being they may never recover, then maybe you'll have a claim to make that judgment... but no, not even then.

Quote:

Learning when and where to delegate resources is a very useful trait. Without going too in depth, as you clearly have limited time, I will simply say that I assign tasks to those in my employ and usually only make the top level decisions. It does not take too much effort to tell someone to go and formulate a plan to deal with the problem and report back.


Very good, you understand the concept of delegation. It has its limits.
Sahriah BloodStone
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#46 - 2015-10-07 01:17:13 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

The education you choose for them, and you don't see a problem with that. Please don't try to tell me I haven't properly thought through the situation when you clearly haven't the first clue what I have or haven't thought of.


I can only go off the things you write. If you fail to, or cannot be bothered to explain your thoughts in more detail then I can only come to my own assumptions based on your words.

The question was, what would you do if you were handed 40,000 slaves and so far the only responses you have managed to convey is 'Give them a lot of money and tell them to have fun.' with a complete disregard for the effects that would have on them. Surely you are not suggesting that no education is better? Or perhaps you have concocted your own ideas for what the quality of the education I would provide for them would be.

You claim to care about their rights and freedom and then show a complete lack of concern for what happens to them afterwards.

Arrendis wrote:

It's not your place to decide if anyone has 'earned' their freedom. They're not your stock. They're people. They belong to themselves, and no-one else. And the decisions you have the right to make for them are the decisions they choose to ask you to make, and not a single one more.


Pretend for a moment that you own a zoo. You have an animal raised completely in captivity, where food and water are provided, where shelter is provided, where enrichment is provided. You then release this animal into the wild, into an environment it is unfamiliar with, tell it to learn to hunt, learn to socialize, learn to survive. You know what happens to those animals? Most of them die. That's why we don't do that.

Slaves often come from a world far different to ours. They have little experience in the way the outside world works and it is our responsibility to ensure they have a good chance of surviving before releasing them to it. It is the same reason we keep a watch on the mentally unstable or suicidal. Because as much as you think they deserve freedom, granting it to them is dangerous for not only themselves, but others.

Alas I feel this discussion will get us nowhere, so while I appreciate your moral idealism, I still believe that your approach is simply not a practical one. Sometimes logic must override emotion, however distasteful it appears.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-10-07 01:27:27 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


Really, you must tell me how you manage to cram more seconds in a day. It's funny, everyone seems to think capsuleers have all the time they could ever need. Maybe you do, I don't know. Maybe we all do, in the long term. But our hypothetical slaves don't need attention 'in the long term', they need attention now, and now, I have about 26 hrs of work to get done every day. Yes, I delegate what I can. What I can't, though, I need to devote my attention to, because nobody else is both (a) in a position to do so, and (b) possessed of the capabilities to do so at the level it requires. And since the work has to get done, or people die... well, the work has to get done.

So again: you simply must tell me how you manage to get more seconds in a day. Because when you're talking about getting other people to do the processing for you? You're still just throwing money at it, and not doing a damned thing yourself. At least I'm being honest about it. Would it sit better with you if I'd said 'pay someone a million ISK a head to process them and get them settled somewhere'? Because that isn't just begging for some corrupt little bastard to line his pockets without taking care of them at all, right?


You can't earn more seconds a day but you can always just reschedule anything unimportant for another day, or failing that, get somebody without a packed schedule to go do things for you.

However, capsuleers are not omniscient and we don't know everything. I, for example, have absolutely no clue on how to erase the indoctrination the nth generation slaves come with and I'm not even going to try to do so. Leave that to somebody who has actually done it and have the resources to do it again.

Now the question that is left is who can be trusted to do it. That's when research is needed. You will be surprised what one can find just by putting in a few keywords into the Galnet search engine.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Wendrika Hydreiga
#48 - 2015-10-07 10:40:43 UTC
Ooh! Ooh! I know this one, I know this one!

If I was given forty thousand slaves, I'd do the exact same thing I did last time Mister Nauplius gave me a bunch of slaves! I would make their lives better with the power of science! Those who volunteer would be subject to my super harmless experiments, and everyone else would be shaped into cybernetically enhanced valuable members of society with the help of my corporate partners!

Then everyone would put bounties on my head because I am clearly evil, specialy when I'm doing good! I like bounties.
Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#49 - 2015-10-07 11:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Haria Haritimado
Jade Blackwind wrote:
I came upon this question in one of the recent threads, and it sort of stuck. There are threads in this forum about what would you do if left alone for a day, or what games you play, so why not: what would you do with forty thousand slaves?


Dear Ms. Blackwind,

Thank you for this interesting question. Many valid answers have been given already, so I won't repeat them again.

It just came to me that your question has propably a deeper level of meaning, even to the extent of being a catchy question at all. There is absolutely no way that I will ever own slaves. And even in the assumed case I happen to find 40,000 people formerly enslaved by others, I find no valid procedure to proceed with them as slaves. Not, at least, from my current perspective as an affiliated capsuleer pilot. However, there are humane ways to deal with displaced people, refugees, even prisoners. I think I would have to fall back on one of those routines instead of forcing myself into the troublesome situation of creating a routine for something that's not intended to have a routine at all.

Respectfully,

Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Hibou Heluene
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-10-07 16:03:37 UTC
The routine is troublesome and all too common, Mlle Haritimado.

Housing, counseling, education, social integration. Eventually employment and sponsorship for citizen status, should it be desired.

I may not support all the beliefs of the Sisters, but working with them has at least given me the means to provide these things for peoples less fortunate.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-10-07 16:38:40 UTC
I'm surprised a certain Ston hasn't chimed in. Hopefully he was infected by the slaves I gave him and is dead now.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#52 - 2015-10-07 16:53:58 UTC
That or its pretty obvious what he would do and isn't chiming in on what is essentially his job....
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-10-08 08:06:05 UTC
Jade Blackwind wrote:

Now, it's your turn, dear reader. What would you do with forty thousand slaves?

It is illegal to own, use, trade or transport slaves in Caldari Space.
First, I would avoid possession of any slaves in the first place.

However, since in the problem they are just given and my possession of them is out of the question, I would immediately submit them to the Empire authority. If I am not mistaken, the best organization to submit slaves to is the MIO (Ministry of Internal Order) of the Amarr Empire. Let it be their headache, not mine.

I am pretty sure the Empire could decide if slaves were legal or illegal, if they were criminals or Empire citizens, and would sort them according to laws, rules and regulations. Then everything will be right and in order.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Yarosara Ruil
#54 - 2015-10-08 10:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
Diana Kim wrote:
However, since in the problem they are just given and my possession of them is out of the question, I would immediately submit them to the Empire authority. If I am not mistaken, the best organization to submit slaves to is the MIO (Ministry of Internal Order) of the Amarr Empire. Let it be their headache, not mine.


I told these demagogues just that and I was accused of not opperating within State law, Commander. By a Goon no less. Furthermore, they took exception in my call to dispose the slaves and prevent their potential enlistment in the Gallentean forces in my inability to turn them in to a responsible Empire organization.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-10-08 10:20:57 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
However, since in the problem they are just given and my possession of them is out of the question, I would immediately submit them to the Empire authority. If I am not mistaken, the best organization to submit slaves to is the MIO (Ministry of Internal Order) of the Amarr Empire. Let it be their headache, not mine.


I told these demagogues just that and I was accused of not opperating within State law, Commander. By a Goon no less. Furthermore, they took exception in my call to dispose the slaves and prevent their potential enlistment in the Gallentean forces in my inability to turn them in to a responsible Empire organization.

Slavery is a common social practice in the Empire, and some of slaves could be loyal Empire citizens, who would look only to return home and would be disgusted from the thought of joining Gallentes. Moreover, the Empire might call for you for killing of Imperial citizens.

However, if you think that the security threat is too large, should you put your own life at the stake and would be ready to take your own life if the Empire will call for your honor if you accidentally kill their citizens, I will respect your decision and won't object against slaves disposal that you would perform.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Yarosara Ruil
#56 - 2015-10-08 11:15:35 UTC
Of course Commander. Their execution would only come as last resort. I'd take full responsibility if internal affairs were to determine my actions as unlawful and against State interests. Just as I would do anything in my power to avoid partake in illegal human trafficing within our borders.

This is a very gray area of due process, Commander. Thank you for your input, I'll take it to heart.
Rhoxy Runekin
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2015-10-08 14:18:48 UTC
I feel like, maybe, everyone has missed the point of this question. Or maybe, I'm misinterpreting it. I feel like this is more a question of, "if you had 40,000 units of manpower, what would you achieve with it?"

To which I would answer; I would take them all on a tour of a Quafe factory so that they would each get one of the free samples at the end, and then I could have those 40,000 free samples.

If we think of them as real people, and not as theoretical units of force, then this only becomes (or rather, has already become) a competition to see who is the most morally pious, or reprehensible. And that, is boring.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#58 - 2015-10-08 14:27:27 UTC
Rhoxy Runekin wrote:
I feel like, maybe, everyone has missed the point of this question. Or maybe, I'm misinterpreting it. I feel like this is more a question of, "if you had 40,000 units of manpower, what would you achieve with it?"


You don't sound like someone that should be working for Lady Aspenstar, Miss Runekin.
Rhoxy Runekin
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2015-10-08 14:33:10 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Rhoxy Runekin wrote:
I feel like, maybe, everyone has missed the point of this question. Or maybe, I'm misinterpreting it. I feel like this is more a question of, "if you had 40,000 units of manpower, what would you achieve with it?"


You don't sound like someone that should be working for Lady Aspenstar, Miss Runekin.


Please don't misunderstand, if these were actual people I would follow through with the exact procedures that have been outlined by my colleagues. But here in this setting this seems to be an arbitrary number of a hypothetical resource. Furthermore, isn't this supposed to be a game? To see who could have the most creative use for this resource? I don't understand why everyone gave the same answer.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#60 - 2015-10-08 14:39:20 UTC
Rhoxy Runekin wrote:
Please don't misunderstand, if these were actual people I would follow through with the exact procedures that have been outlined by my colleagues.


You should do that all the time! Even when you're playing make belief! That's what good people do.

Getting freebies from the Quafe factory? That is just deplorable!