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Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 1,163
Tisiphone Dira Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation Likes received: 1,163	#21 - 2015-10-05 18:57:34 UTC \| Edited by: Tisiphone Dira 2 Aren't you the one who was whinging about not getting the 400k sp a few days ago? What use is SP to somebody who doesn't enjoy or want to continue playing EvE? There once was a ganker named tisi A stunningly beautiful missy To gank a gross miner There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy

Amanda Guido

Federal Defense Union

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 49

#22 - 2015-10-05 18:59:53 UTC | Edited by: Amanda Guido

Jenn aSide wrote:

Malrikk wrote:

I've been playing Eve on and off for quite awhile now, and to be fair, it's mostly been off. I've also been gaming for the majority of my life, I started when I was around 12, and now being 34 I'd like to think I've been gaming quite awhile, mostly playing MMO's, RPG's and FPS.

I know Eve Online is vastly different from pretty much any other MMO and I can appreciate this, it's also one of the reasons I keep coming back to the game, however as I was discussing Eve Online with a friend(he's a veteran as well, with a lot of successful PvP and time under his belt in comparison to me). So we resubbed hoping to get back into Eve and do some PvPing.

After roughly five 5 hours of playing around in EFT and finding the "perfect" fit, we finally make our purchases and head out to do some plexing, only to be met with people who will not engage, and those who do will only engage once they go back to station and come back in a counter.
This is one of the reasons neither of us are coming back to the game. The time it takes to theory craft and fit a ship, only to be countered is absolutely ridiculous. Countering someone should be based on skill, not what ship you're flying. When you spend more time figuring out how to play rather than playing the game, there's a serious problem.

Skill Points, why does it take so long to skill up? Why can't I supplement my SP by using a skill like it was done in Asheron's Call, for example? Is it because you're afraid that subs will plummet or? I guess I don't understand the valid reasoning here because a game sub should be able to be kept active based on the fun factor and the desire to log in. Allowing people to gain SP as they use their skills would also add a little depth to the system.

Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone? CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense? I'd be interested to see metrics on how lvl 5 content is being utilized by your subscribers since you changed it to low sec.

Griefing, and this ties into lvl 5 missions as well. How many subscriptions do you think you have lost due to griefing? In an online game where anonymity is a constant you should be taking greater steps to prevent griefers. High Sec in my opinion should be completely off limits for anything that can cause grief to other players. When you allow griefing, especially in high sec all your game becomes is a haven for internet bullies and sick people who get their jollies off by ruining other peoples gameplay.

There is probably a lot I would attempt to change within Eve Online; macros for orbit and distance commands, an easier to understand UI, etc, etc but these are things that I can live with, but the other things I have listed are simply things I just can't be apart of anymore, it was a very sad realization between myself and my friend who wanted to enjoy Eve, but can't. It makes it harder because Eve really is a wonderful game in its own right, but these glaring issues.

I'm not asking Eve Online to change, and I understand that a lot of people love the game the way it is, but I really felt I had to leave this feedback to the Dev's as I wasn't nearly as forward with my reasoning for leaving during unsubscribing. Whatever Eve Online becomes or ends up, godspeed to you all.

o7

Good luck in whatever other game you choose to spend your free time in.

I've been accused of being a broken record. I plead guilty, but onyl because the truth is a static and unmoving thing lol. The truth here is that you and your friend were mentally incompatible with what EVE Online is and offers.

The things you complained about (universal pvp everywhere, PVE being interruptible at any time by pvp-minded folks, the fact that everyhting has a counter etc) are the things that draw many of us to stay in EVE. You , on the other hand, are a 'standard/average' type gamer, you want that standard 'balance' other MMOs have, you want protection from others while you PVE, and you want the game to regulate behavior like other games do (ie, no 'griefing' in high sec').

EVE is the opposite of what you would enjoy, and that's why people like me enjoy it, it' offers a kind of freedom that games you would enjoy don't offer. EVE turns off many people because they don't like such unstructured games with a 'survival of the fitest' mentality.

Unfortunately, many forum posters aren't like you (realizing the game isn't for you and leaving), they stay because of 'what the game could one day be', not unlike some in RL who stay in bad relationships because they think they can fix their mate lol.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But the base mechanics are flawed. I love that its open and allows for the things it allows. But there are certain mechanics in play that allow for straight up griefing and not fun pvp play.

Although I think you may be right, the OP might just not be for EVE, I can still see some of his point

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#23 - 2015-10-05 19:00:13 UTC | Edited by: Jenn aSide

Amanda Guido wrote:

You are correct. Welcome to Eve, a game which caters to cowards and sick online bullies. If you have not noticed Eve has the worst internet community ever in any MMO ever made. They will flame you, call you names, grief you into unsubbing and then send you an ingame mail to rub it in.

It is one of many reasons Eve is on the decline. It simply can't retain new subs, and the old vets are getting tired and leaving because CCP is slowly making changes away from the current system. The meta behind pvp is almost entirely about abusing mechanics or blob warfare; who can bring more guys and fight the dirtiest.

CCP knows this, but when they try to make any changes, the griefers and bullies cry and burn the Jita statue, chanting "don"t take away my sandbox." It is a catch 22 really.

If you don't believe me, just watch and read the replies I get to this post. Grab your popcorn and enjoy!

LOL. "Hey guys, I'm going to say some dumb as hell hater **** (which is ironic because if i really believed it I sure as hell wouldn't be able to post here because you have to pay to post here), now watch people say my post is nuttier than squirrel ****, that will prove my point!!"

Amanda Guido

Federal Defense Union

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 49

#24 - 2015-10-05 19:01:49 UTC

Jenn aSide wrote:

Amanda Guido wrote:

Much like you said in your post, I stay because I see what potential Eve has. Like you put it, why some people stay with a bad relationship thinking they can fix it. You answered your own question. Thank you for the reply

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#25 - 2015-10-05 19:05:58 UTC | Edited by: Jenn aSide

Tippia wrote:

That's just it: aside from some UI complexities, nothing you've mentioned is an “issue” — they're core design features. They're all EVE, in its own right, and they are what makes EVE wonderful. It's ok that you don't enjoy EVE, but you need to realise that it is not because there's something wrong with the game, but because you fundamentally do not want to play it. If you really thought it was wonderful, you'd enjoy it, but you don't, which suggest that the “wonderful” part is largely something you've imagined that doesn't actually match up with reality. Your expectations are simply not met, which doesn't represent any kind of issue with the game or with you — only with how your desires don't match up with what it offers.

+1

I wonder how people like this mentally account for those of us who actually like the game. I mean if it was so awful, wouldn't almost all of us hate it like some of these people do?

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#26 - 2015-10-05 19:09:54 UTC

Amanda Guido wrote:

Jenn aSide wrote:

Amanda Guido wrote:

The point of that analogy is that it's stupid to do that when the real answer is "leave, and find someone who isn't an a-hole, or learn to love being single".

It's even worse in EVE, because for the game to reach it's 'potential' that some of you dream of, it has to be fundamentally different than what it is now. That's fine if you are the only one in the relationship, , but if it involves others, it means that it will turn into something that the existing folks won't like.

I totally despise the "EVE could be wonderful if they only change it to be more to my liking" people more than I'll ever dislike folks like CODE. At least CODE plays the game as it is.

Amanda Guido

Federal Defense Union

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 49

#27 - 2015-10-05 19:14:11 UTC | Edited by: Amanda Guido

Jenn aSide wrote:

Tippia wrote:

+1

I wonder how people like this mentally account for those of us who actually like the game. I mean if it was so awful, wouldn't almost all of us hate it like some of the people do?

The game itself is not awful. The fundamental aspects of the game have a lot of potential. However, there are too many mechanics in place that allow the community to grief the hell out of players that don't stand a chance. The game literally caters to bullies and cowards. It punishes you for fighting honorably, and enhances the ability to fight like hyenas.

I mean, how long was it a thing to grief newbs in Jita with can flipping? People literally sit out there all day to scam and trick newbs into getting their stuff they worked hours for blown up for their own sick enjoyment. Newbs who have no idea what they are doing and still learning the game.

But challenge one of those "hardcore pvpers" to a fair fight and watch them run for the hills. They would not dare fight anything without a full set of links, boosts, officer gear, and backup on standby if needed. THAT is the community in Eve. If CCP tries to change anything, the community cries out "leave my sandbox! I want to grief newbs in Jita!"

People like me who go out and look for good fights are a minority and are punished for doing so.

The game caters to cowards, plain and simple. At the detriment to future of the game, because they can't keep new subscribers due to the community and mechanics which allow them to do what they do.

Doomheim 71
Eternal Bob Doomheim Likes received: 71	#28 - 2015-10-05 19:36:11 UTC Amanda Guido wrote: The game itself is not awful. lol Let's be real here. The actual gameplay of EVE - in terms of the mechanics of controlling your avatar and utilising its abilities - sucks for the most part. Biomassing to free a char slot.

Jonah Gravenstein

Machiavellian Space Bastards

Likes received: 28,489

#29 - 2015-10-05 19:36:28 UTC | Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein

Amanda Guido wrote:

Most other games punish you for fighting dirty, which leaves a place in the market for a game that does not; that game is called Eve Online.

The community and the open PvP nature of the game is what keeps many of us playing, removing the things you see as griefing would be the worst thing by far that CCP could do to ensure that they remain in business.

Quote:

The game caters to cowards, plain and simple.

Nope, the game caters to people who don't need to be spoon fed and led by the hand. It favours those willing to work with others and learn from their mistakes. That it may not cater to you is irrelevant.

Quote:

At the detriment to future of the game, because they can't keep new subscribers due to the community and mechanics which allow them to do what they do.

New subscriber retention is problematical, but given the nature of the game when compared to most others that isn't a huge surprise. What CCP have found is that newbies who participate in the community and fall "victim" to PvP tend to be retained at a greater rate than those who expect WoW in space.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#30 - 2015-10-05 19:39:26 UTC

Amanda Guido wrote:

This right here describes an underlying beleif system that just doesn't mesh with what EVE is and has always been. The game isn't supposed to be 'fair', it's supposed to be a game of Jackals...and people smart enough to thwart jackals. OF COURSE it punishes you for fighting "honorably" Honor is bullshit everywhere (including real life) except themepark video games.

The use of the word bullies is misplaced. The only people who can be bullied in a venue like this is people who should have never downloaded it in the 1st place.

Quote:

I mean, how long was it a thing to grief newbs in Jita with can flipping? People literally sit out there all day to scam and trick newbs into getting their stuff they worked hours for blown up for their own sick enjoyment. Newbs who have no idea what they are doing and still learning the game.

But challenge one of those "hardcore pvpers" to a fair fight and watch them run for the hills. They would not dare fight anything without a full set of links, boosts, officer gear, and backup on standby if needed. THAT is the community in Eve. If CCP tries to change anything, the community cries out "leave my sandbox! I want to grief newbs in Jita!"

People like me who go out and look for good fights are a minority and are punished for doing so.

The game caters to cowards, plain and simple. At the detriment to future of the game, because they can't keep new subscribers due to the community and mechanics which allow them to do what they do.

If you need for a game to be 'honorable'? why did you choose to play EVE Online, a game notorious for the dishonorable nature of it's community and gameplay? You keep using words like 'fair' and calling others 'cowards' for playing a game within that games own rule-set.

Can you not understand that your problem is you, not EVE Online?

BirdStrike

Doomheim

Likes received: 157

#31 - 2015-10-05 19:40:27 UTC

The big sov holding alliances are partly to blame, they seem to have become the biggest carebears in EVE, which probably explains why so many people are gankfesting hisec because the alliances don't want to actual upset their status quo and starving players of meaningful pew pew.

The best thing they could do for EVE is remove the sec system entirely, carebears develop an irrational fear of lowsec leaving it a wasteground, and bubblecamps were so lol overpowered it discouraged all but experienced fleets from roaming nullsec.

If we had one big free for all space then at least people would start with the right mentality that it can kick off anywhere and not get into a comfortable isk grinding habit where every risk should be nullified by the devs.

This is meant to be an mmo, if people want to just run missions or mine solo CCP should just release a standalone offline game for them rather than rewrite the mechanics every 5 minutes and spoil the game for everyone who comes he for a massive multiplayer online experience, with all the human asshattery that entails.

Have A Seat 1,121
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat Likes received: 1,121	#32 - 2015-10-05 19:44:34 UTC 2 sounds like a couple of shitties still suck at eve Not today spaghetti.

Cidanel Afuran

Grant Village

Likes received: 723

#33 - 2015-10-05 19:45:20 UTC

Amanda Guido wrote:

The game caters to cowards, plain and simple. At the detriment to future of the game, because they can't keep new subscribers due to the community and mechanics which allow them to do what they do.

EVE has been one of the top rated MMOs for over a decade. What exactly do you mean by "they can't keep new subscribers"?

And EVE is built on the idea of warfare, not about evenly matched fights. The fight is determined before you activate any modules most of the time. It's about intel/preparation more than the actual battle.

Jenn aSide

Soul Machines

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#34 - 2015-10-05 19:45:49 UTC

Eternal Bob wrote:

Amanda Guido wrote:

The game itself is not awful.

lol

Let's be real here. The actual gameplay of EVE - in terms of the mechanics of controlling your avatar and utilising its abilities - sucks for the most part.

Not to people who actually like it. I love how in EVE I'm the captain of a ship rather than it's pilot like in Elite. The UI and how you control avatars (ships) reflects this, unlike in other games where I'm forced to use that aweful WASD crap.

Some people really can't understand that their own preferences aren't universal.

Ceryph Archai

Sukebe Corporation

Likes received: 6

#35 - 2015-10-05 19:50:53 UTC | Edited by: Ceryph Archai

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Amanda Guido wrote:

The game caters to cowards, plain and simple.

Actually, I'd argue that it does. No one goes into a battle with something they will definitely lose against. I wouldn't take a Nemesis against an Astero, but I sure as hell will take it against an Imicus, Helios or a Cheetah.

Suicide ganking in hisec isn't punished enough when you have a group of Catalysts that can harass a freighter for over an hour and there is literally nothing that the freighter pilot can do. Bumping is a flawed system that only exists so that the devs don't have to deal with collision damage and the physics involved with that. And it is ludicrous that CCP can go so far as to say this is valid, just because of a mechanic in-game. It bypasses the whole point of Warp Stabs and Warp Scramblers; the victim can put on 30 warp stabs and it don't matter, and the aggressors don't need to fit scramblers. It's stupid.

And you have the terrorist organization known as CODE. who likes to think they are upholding the laws of James 315 but really are left-wing nut-cases who are taking his teachings out of context for luls. While it can be dangerous for these people to operate, if CCP wanted everything to be an FFA shitstorm, there would be no HiSec; there would be no CONCORD. Everyone likes to tout how "this is the way the game is meant to be played" until we get to hisec where everyone conveniently ignores that philosophy and wants to change it to fit in their image.

Or the broken WarDec system that PIRAT abuses so they can take a **** on people who are moving goods around because they don't want to get into real PvP where they could more likely be at a disadvantage. PIRAT preys on industrial corps to get easy kills to pad a killboard that means nothing because the battles are heavily one-sided because it's easy to do. It's why they sit at trade hubs (I'm looking at your AchillesSR who has no life at the Amarr trade hub) preying on individuals instead of going around looking for fights.

Don't get me wrong, I am a PvP'er (not on this account, but I'm not letting anyone know my main...lol) and I pick on people (I buy PLEX just so I can be a **** without having to do extra work for it), but I don't have this deluded idea that I should be able to do so in HiSec; I only engage in LS, NS and WH's.

While there is an underlying philosophy of everything is PvP, the reason HiSec and CONCORD exists is to reduce the amount of douche-baggery done to people who aren't too keen on being on the receiving end.

But, I know, people don't like to hear all this **** because it erodes their self-imposed views of what Eve Online should be, views they only rely on when it suits them and dismiss other valid aspects of the game when it goes against this view.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#36 - 2015-10-05 19:53:15 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Amanda Guido wrote:

Like what?

More to the point: so what? Griefing gets you banned, and short of removing the multiplayer bit altogether you've described every multiplayer game. Pretty much every mechanic in an MP game can be used to grief other players, which points to griefing not really being a matter of mechanics at all.

Quote:

It punishes you for fighting honorably, and enhances the ability to fight like hyenas.

Not really. The game mechanics don't care how you fight. If you choose to fight with a handicap, you are handicapped in the fight. This is such a blindingly obvious tautology that it boggles the mind to think how that could possibly be construed as a problem.

Quote:

I mean, how long was it a thing to grief newbs in Jita with can flipping?

Probably along the lines of ~0h after release. Partly because can flipping was never griefing; partly because can flipping was never really a thing in Jita; and partly because Jita was never really a newbie-heavy system.

Quote:

But challenge one of those "hardcore pvpers" to a fair fight and watch them run for the hills. They would not dare fight anything without a full set of links, boosts, officer gear, and backup on standby if needed.

You seem to be describing the “levelling your Raven” n00b on his first outing without a clue on how to fit for, fly, or plan a combat engagement. Only that kind of player would be idiot enough to use officer gear. Hardcore PvPers are in it for the PvP — not to follow some arbitrary rules. If you want to handicap yourself, then you're free to do so, but it's unrealistic to expect others to do the same, and outright arrogant to suggest that this is a mark against them. Naïveté isn't a virtue.

Again: this is a full-PvP open sandbox. You have to force your will onto others — the game will not do it for you, because that's not how a sandbox works. If you want a “fair fight” by some arbitrary measure you've set up, you therefore have to force your subjective ruleset the other player(s). If you can't do that, or if you can't accept that they can, will, and must force their ruleset onto you, then you are not just looking for a vastly different game; you're looking for a completely different genre altogether.


Eternal Bob Doomheim Likes received: 71	#37 - 2015-10-05 20:04:12 UTC Jenn aSide wrote: Not to people who actually like it. There will always be a minority of strange folk who find mining fun and who enjoy being kicked in the balls. Biomassing to free a char slot.

Noble Sentiments Second Empire. 1,753
Lykouleon Noble Sentiments Second Empire. Likes received: 1,753	#38 - 2015-10-05 20:13:43 UTC 1 Is it really already that time of the week for this thread? Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

10,020
Paranoid Loyd Likes received: 10,020	#39 - 2015-10-05 20:19:11 UTC 3 Lykouleon wrote: Is it really already that time of the week for this thread? Does the day end in y? "There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix Fix the Prospect!