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A message to the developers.

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Malrikk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-10-05 17:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Malrikk
I've been playing Eve on and off for quite awhile now, and to be fair, it's mostly been off. I've also been gaming for the majority of my life, I started when I was around 12, and now being 34 I'd like to think I've been gaming quite awhile, mostly playing MMO's, RPG's and FPS.

I know Eve Online is vastly different from pretty much any other MMO and I can appreciate this, it's also one of the reasons I keep coming back to the game, however as I was discussing Eve Online with a friend(he's a veteran as well, with a lot of successful PvP and time under his belt in comparison to me). So we resubbed hoping to get back into Eve and do some PvPing.

After roughly five 5 hours of playing around in EFT and finding the "perfect" fit, we finally make our purchases and head out to do some plexing, only to be met with people who will not engage, and those who do will only engage once they go back to station and come back in a counter.
This is one of the reasons neither of us are coming back to the game. The time it takes to theory craft and fit a ship, only to be countered is absolutely ridiculous. Countering someone should be based on skill, not what ship you're flying. When you spend more time figuring out how to play rather than playing the game, there's a serious problem.


Skill Points, why does it take so long to skill up? Why can't I supplement my SP by using a skill like it was done in Asheron's Call, for example? Is it because you're afraid that subs will plummet or? I guess I don't understand the valid reasoning here because a game sub should be able to be kept active based on the fun factor and the desire to log in. Allowing people to gain SP as they use their skills would also add a little depth to the system.


Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone? CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense? I'd be interested to see metrics on how lvl 5 content is being utilized by your subscribers since you changed it to low sec.


Griefing, and this ties into lvl 5 missions as well. How many subscriptions do you think you have lost due to griefing? In an online game where anonymity is a constant you should be taking greater steps to prevent griefers. High Sec in my opinion should be completely off limits for anything that can cause grief to other players. When you allow griefing, especially in high sec all your game becomes is a haven for internet bullies and sick people who get their jollies off by ruining other peoples gameplay.

There is probably a lot I would attempt to change within Eve Online; macros for orbit and distance commands, an easier to understand UI, etc, etc but these are things that I can live with, but the other things I have listed are simply things I just can't be apart of anymore, it was a very sad realization between myself and my friend who wanted to enjoy Eve, but can't. It makes it harder because Eve really is a wonderful game in its own right, but these glaring issues.

I'm not asking Eve Online to change, and I understand that a lot of people love the game the way it is, but I really felt I had to leave this feedback to the Dev's as I wasn't nearly as forward with my reasoning for leaving during unsubscribing. Whatever Eve Online becomes or ends up, godspeed to you all.

o7
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2 - 2015-10-05 17:21:29 UTC
Godspeed.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3 - 2015-10-05 17:28:54 UTC
o7



Can I have your stuff?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tyra Falco
Glasgow Kiss Enterprises
#4 - 2015-10-05 17:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyra Falco
Malrikk wrote:
Bye guys

o7


Can I have your stuff?

Bah.. too late Straight

Samoth Egnoled -'I like your Avatar alot! The facial tattoo's kinda give you that scary clown look, which suits you quite well.' Pepper Swift -'Fuckisn like not workign'
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-10-05 17:34:28 UTC
Malrikk wrote:
I'CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense?


You sound so much like a World of Warcraft player here, I mean word for word this is exactly what PvE server carebears say whenever there is some achievement or something that has a little bit of PvP requirement for completion. They also like to say that they are being "forced" as if the game devs are climbing into their windows at night and forcing them out of their beds at gunpoint and making them PvP.

Yeah, good riddance.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-10-05 17:34:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
You are correct. Welcome to Eve, a game which caters to cowards and sick online bullies. If you have not noticed Eve has the worst internet community ever in any MMO ever made. They will flame you, call you names, grief you into unsubbing and then send you an ingame mail to rub it in.

It is one of many reasons Eve is on the decline. It simply can't retain new subs, and the old vets are getting tired and leaving because CCP is slowly making changes away from the current system. The meta behind pvp is almost entirely about abusing mechanics or blob warfare; who can bring more guys and fight the dirtiest. But when people stick to high sec because of this flawed system, they are called care bears and flamed.

CCP knows this, but when they try to make any changes, the griefers and bullies cry and burn the Jita statue, chanting "don"t take away my sandbox." It is a catch 22 really.

If you don't believe me, just watch and read the replies I get to this post. Grab your popcorn and enjoy!
Austneal
Nero Fazione
#7 - 2015-10-05 17:35:50 UTC
It takes you 5 hours to make a fitting? A friend of mine got into the game about a month ago, and it takes her about 10 - 15 minutes.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#8 - 2015-10-05 17:36:25 UTC
o7
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2015-10-05 17:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Malrikk wrote:
After roughly five 5 hours of playing around in EFT and finding the "perfect" fit, we finally make our purchases and head out to do some plexing, only to be met with people who will not engage, and those who do will only engage once they go back to station and come back in a counter.

Two words: Mobile Depot (for refitting in space).

Malrikk wrote:
Skill Points, why does it take so long to skill up? Why can't I supplement my SP by using a skill like it was done in Asheron's Call, for example? Is it because you're afraid that subs will plummet or? I guess I don't understand the valid reasoning here because a game sub should be able to be kept active based on the fun factor and the desire to log in. Allowing people to gain SP as they use their skills would also add a little depth to the system.

My very first battleship was lost in less than 24 hours.

Skill points are meaningless without experience.

Also, skill points are more about gaining choices, something you already don't like (countering).

"The Skillpoint System and You"

... and my own: Skill Expectations

Malrikk wrote:
Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone? CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense? I'd be interested to see metrics on how lvl 5 content is being utilized by your subscribers since you changed it to low sec.

CCP calls it "Risk vs. Reward".

Malrikk wrote:
Griefing, and this ties into lvl 5 missions as well. How many subscriptions do you think you have lost due to griefing? In an online game where anonymity is a constant you should be taking greater steps to prevent griefers. High Sec in my opinion should be completely off limits for anything that can cause grief to other players. When you allow griefing, especially in high sec all your game becomes is a haven for internet bullies and sick people who get their jollies off by ruining other peoples gameplay.

"Griefing" is against the EULA, however non-consensual PvP is not.

EVE is a PvP game. Everybody vs. Everybody.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-10-05 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Austneal wrote:
It takes you 5 hours to make a fitting? A friend of mine got into the game about a month ago, and it takes her about 10 - 15 minutes.


Ya I am sure she puts a a lot of thought into that fail fit. It takes a lot longer to come up with a brand new decent fit.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-10-05 17:39:52 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
It is one of many reasons Eve is on the decline.


Honestly, MMOs in general aren't doing well right now. It's an old genre for older gamers, by and large. Final Fantasy may be the only one currently on the upswing, but it's impossible to know for sure because the actual numbers for that one are not available.
Austneal
Nero Fazione
#12 - 2015-10-05 17:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Austneal
Amanda Guido wrote:
Austneal wrote:
It takes you 5 hours to make a fitting? A friend of mine got into the game about a month ago, and it takes her about 10 - 15 minutes.


Ya I am sure she puts a a lot of thought into that fail fit

Sure, she's made a few fitting mistakes. But after a few tips here and there, she now fits fairly well.

Amanda Guido wrote:
Eve has the worst internet community ever


With players like you... it truly is a wonder
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-10-05 17:43:25 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Austneal wrote:
It takes you 5 hours to make a fitting? A friend of mine got into the game about a month ago, and it takes her about 10 - 15 minutes.


Ya I am sure she puts a a lot of thought into that fail fit


If you have fun in the ship it is not a fail fit.
Austneal
Nero Fazione
#14 - 2015-10-05 17:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Austneal
Double post
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#15 - 2015-10-05 17:45:12 UTC
Malrikk wrote:
Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone? CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense? I'd be interested to see metrics on how lvl 5 content is being utilized by your subscribers since you changed it to low sec.


Any part of space when you are undocked is a PvP zone.

CCP Falcon wrote:

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2015-10-05 17:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malrikk wrote:
After roughly five 5 hours of playing around in EFT and finding the "perfect" fit, we finally make our purchases and head out to do some plexing, only to be met with people who will not engage, and those who do will only engage once they go back to station and come back in a counter.
This is one of the reasons neither of us are coming back to the game. The time it takes to theory craft and fit a ship, only to be countered is absolutely ridiculous. Countering someone should be based on skill, not what ship you're flying.
Picking the right ship and knowing what to engage and when is a skill. Realising that there is nothing as a “perfect” fit, and that everything has a counter plays into this. Fights in this game start long before the first shot is fired, and revolve around knowing the paper-scissors-rock structure of ship balancing. With enough skill, you can subvert that pretty hard (cf. battle industrials and gank barges), and you can often overcome it completely through sheer numbers. However, this requires intimate knowledge of what ships are capable of; how mechanics work; how to fly manually without using trivially countered stuff like the orbit and keep at distance commands.

So that's three skills in play right there: social skills, planning skills, flying skills. EFT isn't even on the list because that's just a vanishingly small part of the planning, where the real skill lies in knowing what to actually prepare for; knowing that you will have to improvise; and setting yourself up to allow for quick adjustments.

Quote:
Skill Points, why does it take so long to skill up? Why can't I supplement my SP by using a skill like it was done in Asheron's Call, for example?
Because it proved to be thoroughly awful and directly harmful to the gameplay, so it was taken out. It was replaced by a “skill to skill” system that proved to be thoroughly awful and directly harmful to the new player experience, so it was taken out too.

Quote:
Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone?
All PvE activity exists in a PvP zone. That zone is called “all of EVE.” Highsec is no different in that regard. It is still the same kind of full-PvP open area as the rest of the game, and that is entirely intentional and by design. Highsec is simply a place where aggression comes at a cost, and you are making a bet that other people's miserliness will keep them from going after you. Removing that isn't really possible without a complete redesign from the ground up and an abandonment of the core sandbox concept at the heart of the game.

Quote:
Griefing, and this ties into lvl 5 missions as well. How many subscriptions do you think you have lost due to griefing?
Griefing has proven to be a very minor part in driving players away. They've tried very hard to find a correlation and come up with nothing. Most likely, this is because griefing isn't allowed in EVE — in fact, it's one of the quickest ways of getting yourself banned.

Quote:
it was a very sad realization between myself and my friend who wanted to enjoy Eve, but can't. It makes it harder because Eve really is a wonderful game in its own right, but these glaring issues.
That's just it: aside from some UI complexities, nothing you've mentioned is an “issue” — they're core design features. They're all EVE, in its own right, and they are what makes EVE wonderful. It's ok that you don't enjoy EVE, but you need to realise that it is not because there's something wrong with the game, but because you fundamentally do not want to play it. If you really thought it was wonderful, you'd enjoy it, but you don't, which suggest that the “wonderful” part is largely something you've imagined that doesn't actually match up with reality. Your expectations are simply not met, which doesn't represent any kind of issue with the game or with you — only with how your desires don't match up with what it offers.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#17 - 2015-10-05 18:05:35 UTC
OP is a clueless themepark carebear that's very confused about the nature of sandbox mmo-rpg games.

The Tears Must Flow
Salvos Rhoska
#18 - 2015-10-05 18:17:41 UTC
You are leaving for all the wrong reasons.

These aren't even an issue.
I could explain why, but it would take me 1-2 pages to do so, inorder to overcome your existing false understanding about a great many things.

Ill abbreviate it, simply, to "Bye".

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-10-05 18:44:04 UTC
In other news: Kim Kardashian.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#20 - 2015-10-05 18:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Malrikk wrote:
I've been playing Eve on and off for quite awhile now, and to be fair, it's mostly been off. I've also been gaming for the majority of my life, I started when I was around 12, and now being 34 I'd like to think I've been gaming quite awhile, mostly playing MMO's, RPG's and FPS.

I know Eve Online is vastly different from pretty much any other MMO and I can appreciate this, it's also one of the reasons I keep coming back to the game, however as I was discussing Eve Online with a friend(he's a veteran as well, with a lot of successful PvP and time under his belt in comparison to me). So we resubbed hoping to get back into Eve and do some PvPing.

After roughly five 5 hours of playing around in EFT and finding the "perfect" fit, we finally make our purchases and head out to do some plexing, only to be met with people who will not engage, and those who do will only engage once they go back to station and come back in a counter.
This is one of the reasons neither of us are coming back to the game. The time it takes to theory craft and fit a ship, only to be countered is absolutely ridiculous. Countering someone should be based on skill, not what ship you're flying. When you spend more time figuring out how to play rather than playing the game, there's a serious problem.


Skill Points, why does it take so long to skill up? Why can't I supplement my SP by using a skill like it was done in Asheron's Call, for example? Is it because you're afraid that subs will plummet or? I guess I don't understand the valid reasoning here because a game sub should be able to be kept active based on the fun factor and the desire to log in. Allowing people to gain SP as they use their skills would also add a little depth to the system.


Can anyone explain to me why level 5 missions, a PvE activity is inside a PvP zone? CCP, you are forcing people into PvP via a PvE activity, does this really make sense? I'd be interested to see metrics on how lvl 5 content is being utilized by your subscribers since you changed it to low sec.


Griefing, and this ties into lvl 5 missions as well. How many subscriptions do you think you have lost due to griefing? In an online game where anonymity is a constant you should be taking greater steps to prevent griefers. High Sec in my opinion should be completely off limits for anything that can cause grief to other players. When you allow griefing, especially in high sec all your game becomes is a haven for internet bullies and sick people who get their jollies off by ruining other peoples gameplay.

There is probably a lot I would attempt to change within Eve Online; macros for orbit and distance commands, an easier to understand UI, etc, etc but these are things that I can live with, but the other things I have listed are simply things I just can't be apart of anymore, it was a very sad realization between myself and my friend who wanted to enjoy Eve, but can't. It makes it harder because Eve really is a wonderful game in its own right, but these glaring issues.

I'm not asking Eve Online to change, and I understand that a lot of people love the game the way it is, but I really felt I had to leave this feedback to the Dev's as I wasn't nearly as forward with my reasoning for leaving during unsubscribing. Whatever Eve Online becomes or ends up, godspeed to you all.

o7


Good luck in whatever other game you choose to spend your free time in.

I've been accused of being a broken record. I plead guilty, but onyl because the truth is a static and unmoving thing lol. The truth here is that you and your friend were mentally incompatible with what EVE Online is and offers.

The things you complained about (universal pvp everywhere, PVE being interruptible at any time by pvp-minded folks, the fact that everyhting has a counter etc) are the things that draw many of us to stay in EVE. You , on the other hand, are a 'standard/average' type gamer, you want that standard 'balance' other MMOs have, you want protection from others while you PVE, and you want the game to regulate behavior like other games do (ie, no 'griefing' in high sec').

EVE is the opposite of what you would enjoy, and that's why people like me enjoy it, it' offers a kind of freedom that games you would enjoy don't offer. EVE turns off many people because they don't like such unstructured games with a 'survival of the fittest' mentality.


Unfortunately, many forum posters aren't like you (realizing the game isn't for you and leaving), they stay because of 'what the game could one day be', not unlike some in RL who stay in bad relationships because they think they can fix their mate lol.
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