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[December] Missile Disruptors and Tweaks to Missile Guidance Mods

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Author
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#481 - 2015-12-04 18:44:04 UTC
Doesnt appear to have been any feedback opportunity for these.

Only hit sisi a day before the final patch notes were released.

Little disappointed in that tbh.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#482 - 2015-12-05 01:49:45 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

there should be an active intention too nerf there strength, just another reason why drones are dominant is all the easy ways too nerf turrets and now missiles into uselessness.


I don't think TD's or MD's are overpowered. They take up alot of cpu, and important midslots, for a disruptive effect on only one kind of weapon system. You just don't see them on that many fits, for those reasons alone. If they sucked as well, you just wouldn't see them at all.

Drones having less counter-play I'm sure will get addressed at some point with some anti-drone ewar of some kind. Which would itself be quite easy to balance because once again you have to actually fit the module in the first place for it to be used. The amount of use the TD sees now is no real cause for concern, it's frequency on the most common fits is quite balanced.

Damps, disruptors, paints, are all pretty fine as they are. Neuts are far more common, but are also fine.

ECM itself I think could stand to be changed, not because its too commonplace, just because its effect is chance based.


The problem with statements like "they take up alot of CPU" is that it is false. Armour ships can free up CPU for midslot utility EWAR (the ubiquitous TD's everywhere T1 frig fits, for instance) by using resistance platings instead of EANMs. They can also fit CPU rigs (cheap as). A lot of what should theoretically be shield fit frigs, for instance, run small AAR's and midslot EWAR setups - for instance the Slasher, Condor, etc.

You also erroneously state "You just don't see them on that many fits, for those reasons alone". this is a nonsense; if the fit doesn't work, it's not a fit.

What you should be saying actually supports the view that MD's and midslot EWAR profliferation is bad, and that is: people will adjust the meta to take advantage of the MD's, TD's etc to further exacerbate midslot EWAR AAR solo boats (with links!), or armour tanked boats where resistance tank is moved to the rigs (where it is CPU free).

You clearly know nothing about how to fit a ship if you complain that high-resist shield buffer is unviable. Of course it is - which is why you'll see so many Vexors or Ishtars packing MD/TD midslots running around.

[Vexor, MD-TD]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

MD or TD
MD or TD
50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II

Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Etc

[Slasher, MD-TD]

Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[Empty High slot]

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#483 - 2015-12-05 07:20:26 UTC
Interesting concepts, but..
Slasher has no cap to run this cap load and will be shredded by any combat frig with web. Comet for example, as most common frig in fw.
There will be no kiting with 1600 plate and 3 armor rigs, not in a vexor anyways.
And when you'll get scramwebbed, TDs will not help you, as TD/MD is a form of range control, just worse one than web/scram/dump.

If you TD optimal -> keep at "close"
If you TD tracking -> keep at "scramkite"

Advantage of TDs? Approaching 0. You'd be better with active tank (speed) and dumps in meds, where target cant even lock you to apply hard tackle, let alone DPS.


If you are kiting in a kiting ship dupms is a superior form of range control, as it doesn't care about missiles, turrests, drones, reps whatever..
Or long webs doesnt care about what type of weapon type target has, you can just dictate and move to advantageous possition (kite/close orbit).
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#484 - 2015-12-05 09:21:08 UTC
Oh. My. God. Do you mean to say that you shouldn't pick on ever ship you come up against with a Slasher? Wow, that's news to me. i was about to suggest you go and use that Slasher against a Vindicator within its web range! Silly me!

Are we discussing tracking disruptors on a missile disruptor thread? Why, yes, yes we are! How silly of me that pyfa doesn't have these missile disruptors loaded and I didn't stipulate (because it should be eyeball-bleedingly obvious) that I was proving that MD's could be stacked on to ships.

Maybe you should consider the thrust of the argument not cherry pick an example where a faction frigate would tear you a new one against one of the weakest and most useless frigates in the game. I mean, just sayin'

consider the Slasher as throwaway tackle on, say, a HAM Legion. Or a Raven. Or a Sacrilege. Or a Cyclone. Or a HAM Tengu, kiting it's slow carcass at 20km while pushing -17% (unscripted) flight time, velocity bonuses for a total of -34% range, dropping its HAM range down to 10km.

Oh, oh! Or...or...maybe it is a Sentinel, and it gets a bonus to the MD's! And with 2 MD's unscripted the HAM range of the Tengu is like, 5km. And then you have neuts. And cap out the Tengu while AB scramkiting it with no web!

Amazing! Holy schnitzels! Why pick on Comets at all? Just use your AB slasher with scripted MD on the right Tengu and you're getting where I am going with my point! Holy, it's like midslot EWAR proliferation is such a thing that you can even use a gang of frigates to totally tear any cruiser to pieces now! LOLOL!!!!!!ONEONEFUCKINGONE!!!!!!
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#485 - 2015-12-05 10:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mad Abbat
Trinkets friend wrote:
Oh. My. God. Do you mean to say that you shouldn't pick on ever ship you come up against with a Slasher? Wow, that's news to me. i was about to suggest you go and use that Slasher against a Vindicator within its web range! Silly me!


that is the most common ship in FW zone, mb on par with trisnan. Thats why I picked it, Silly you.

Trinkets friend wrote:

Are we discussing tracking disruptors on a missile disruptor thread? Why, yes, yes we are! How silly of me that pyfa doesn't have these missile disruptors loaded and I didn't stipulate (because it should be eyeball-bleedingly obvious) that I was proving that MD's could be stacked on to ships.


if you fit MD you can't fight turret ships, if you fit TD, you can't fight Missle ships, and drone boats will eat you alive regardless what you fit. Have FUN LOOKING for the fight you can take. in the mean time, say thx to Fozzie.

Trinkets friend wrote:

consider the Slasher as throwaway tackle on, say, a HAM Legion. Or a Raven. Or a Sacrilege. Or a Cyclone. Or a HAM Tengu, kiting it's slow carcass at 20km while pushing -17% (unscripted) flight time, velocity bonuses for a total of -34% range, dropping its HAM range down to 10km.

Oh, oh! Or...or...maybe it is a Sentinel, and it gets a bonus to the MD's! And with 2 MD's unscripted the HAM range of the Tengu is like, 5km. And then you have neuts. And cap out the Tengu while AB scramkiting it with no web!

Amazing! Holy schnitzels! Why pick on Comets at all? Just use your AB slasher with scripted MD on the right Tengu and you're getting where I am going with my point! Holy, it's like midslot EWAR proliferation is such a thing that you can even use a gang of frigates to totally tear any cruiser to pieces now! LOLOL!!!!!!ONEONEFUCKINGONE!!!!!!



rly?

why whould one even consider it? Just grab a inty/garmur, orbit at 35-55 and chillax. 0 risk. 0 skill. 0 loses.
Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#486 - 2015-12-05 12:43:47 UTC
+1 to

Caldari need ewar that isnt jams
Defender and Auto targeting missiles need a buff/do stuff
Caldari need unique anti drone weapon

about these anti missile things
these currently look way to strong
you have forgot that if I tracking disrupt a ship that ship can move in space and nullify 100% my ewar
with these things your inventing nothing can be done to counter them simply by moving my ship
I have to use a module
which I do not need if I'm using turrets

Something like a velocity/flight time penalty would of been appropriate
scripted so that
either the missile takes longer to get there
or
the missile has less range

Epsilon Ex
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2015-12-07 00:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Epsilon Ex
Turrets can already get tracking disrupted, which you can work around.

Drones can already be destroyed, which you can work around.

Missile disruption make sense. If they script for range, then move your ship closer. If they script for precision, then web and paint the target and it doesn't matter. There is still counter-play, which is what CCP wants. All weapon systems now have counter-play and all counter-weapon systems have counter-play. Counter counter counter.

To people complaining about missile damage, it's the only weapon system that does full damage from 0km to max range, requires no capacitor, and cannot be "reasonably" stopped like drones (any weapon system can also be used to kill drones. Can't shoot missiles down with blasters, but you can cap out the blaster boat who will no longer be able to fire).

All I hear is wah wah wah, I like missiles, please don't make anything that negatively affects the thing I like.
Your argument is invalid
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#488 - 2015-12-07 07:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Epsilon Ex wrote:


To people complaining about missile damage, it's the only weapon system that does full damage from 0km to max range, requires no capacitor, and cannot be "reasonably" stopped like drones (any weapon system can also be used to kill drones. Can't shoot missiles down with blasters, but you can cap out the blaster boat who will no longer be able to fire).



No it doesn't and yes you can.

A quick look at the missile formula, shows you're wrong

and while not being able to shoot them down with blasters, you can out run them.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#489 - 2015-12-07 08:50:04 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Epsilon Ex wrote:


To people complaining about missile damage, it's the only weapon system that does full damage from 0km to max range, requires no capacitor, and cannot be "reasonably" stopped like drones (any weapon system can also be used to kill drones. Can't shoot missiles down with blasters, but you can cap out the blaster boat who will no longer be able to fire).



No it doesn't and yes you can.

A quick look at the missile formula, show you're wrong

and while not being able to shout them down with blasters, you can out run them.



This essentially..
I've seen a missile volley hit for 0 damage, as a result of exp velocity.
This may be considered a "hit" in technical terms, but you've gotta be kidding me if you consider as such..
Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#490 - 2015-12-07 19:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Chihiro Chugakusei
I thought the idea was not to homogenize everything. This is a significant nerf to missiles. If your going to make disruption ships that much better, you might want to take the second Ewar bonus (neutralizers) off all those ships.

Seems like this idea got swept under the carpet with other bigger better updates. This is no where near ready for release. But Since this module is here now, I guess its here to stay. It's just one more reason to use turrets instead.

Keep it up, +1

Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#491 - 2015-12-07 19:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Chihiro Chugakusei
[Deleted]

Keep it up, +1

Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#492 - 2015-12-07 19:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Chihiro Chugakusei
Just looking at the module stats and seeing that there is no counter. What is the counter for this module supposed to be if you're in a missile ship? If im in a turret ship I can move away to get better transversal, or web (most ships are already fit with web) and negate the disruptor. If im in a missile ship, I need to web and target paint. Ships have to do more to counter this and im sorry but not everyone flies in a fleet. -

Especially that explosion radius and velocity script, I'm looking at it and it is insane. From the perspective of disruption, you can play with explosion velocity, but you should definitely not touch explosion radius. I'll probably do 30% less damage with rockets, to a frigate that isnt even moving.

Keep it up, +1

Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#493 - 2015-12-07 20:04:56 UTC
violtr wrote:
So, missiles are the only weapon type that people can reduce players dps with smart bombs and cut any incoming missiles dps, where as auto cannons, energy beams and hybrids turrets people cannont reduce their dmg out put so why mess with missiles more when they are already at a disadvantage over other weapons. Not to mention the sacrifice of not having a fall off range and instant dps ie blaping. Also missile users also have to battle explosion radius ontop of that as well.


This.

Keep it up, +1

Ammirix
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#494 - 2015-12-07 21:21:08 UTC
Hello

I cant find anything about Remote Missile Guidance Computers..

do they not come with this update tomorrow?
Saracena
Infinatech
#495 - 2015-12-07 21:52:57 UTC
This seems like a rather large nerf to an already mediocre damage application platform.

If it was truly about diversity then there would be remote guidance mods introduced at the same time, as many in this thread have already mentioned.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out ingame, as always, but not a huge fan of this particular change.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#496 - 2015-12-07 23:22:42 UTC
Ammirix wrote:
Hello

I cant find anything about Remote Missile Guidance Computers..

do they not come with this update tomorrow?


Nothing on the patch notes suggest that will be included, but I have a feeling they will be releasing something along those lines soon after. My guess is they are giving the MGC/MGE buff to make them a bit more relevant and help a bit until remote versions are released, and some of the new items on Sisi seem to make reference to a remote guidance module. Honestly, the MGE needs a bigger one, but that's another fight all together.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#497 - 2015-12-07 23:33:37 UTC
Saracena wrote:
This seems like a rather large nerf to an already mediocre damage application platform.

If it was truly about diversity then there would be remote guidance mods introduced at the same time, as many in this thread have already mentioned.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out ingame, as always, but not a huge fan of this particular change.


My hope is that they will be taking that into account once they inevitably, and finally, decide to give missile systems a proper balancing pass. I don't disagree with putting these modules in the game, in fact I support the idea of an anti-missile EWAR mod, especially given that defenders are in such a horrid way. But this was not the right time for it. CCP is on the right track, but they're going the wrong way.

At the very least, these disrupters should have been released in conjunction with a remote module family rather than just the disrupters on there own. If the remote modules, should they be in the works, are not ready for deployment yet, the the disrupters should be held off until then. I figured that's what the whole idea of the 6-week cycles were meant to permit that CCP can't really do with a 6-month cycle as easily.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#498 - 2015-12-08 01:59:57 UTC
The command destroyers will also pull missiles with the Micro Jump Field generator.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6172053#post6172053

Missiles/rockets getting whacked bigtime. With no missile rebalance or friendly tracking module announced they will be in a sorry state for a while.

Bianca Niam
Doomheim
#499 - 2015-12-08 11:31:36 UTC
Cant believe ccp is nerfing missiles yet again and without any counter whatsoever.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#500 - 2015-12-08 17:29:04 UTC
Bianca Niam wrote:
Cant believe ccp is nerfing missiles yet again and without any counter whatsoever.

you missed the whole missile guidance computers, didn't you