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Current state of turret tracking and damage application...

First post
Author
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-10-03 14:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I solo PvP regularly with larger ships, as i was tired of the frigate/small ship meta. Your friend here is transversal, that is how big guns track small targets. You don't have enough of it, An AB cruiser/BS is in some cases not fast enough to leave a frigate behind. Enabling them to orbit you and "outtrack" your guns through signature resolution, not necessarily tracking.

I have killed succubus, worms, just about every AF and T3D with a tornado and other BC's and BS. You MUST be faster than your frigate enemies with an AB, or have a neut to turn off their props so you are faster than them with an AB. The fact you're using ships that can't support a neut is your first issue. Brawling without a neut is risky, and can only be considered if you have the speed to outrun frigates when scrammed/webbed.

For things like a BS, you need MJD. No question. If you really want to solo PvP with BC's and BS, an MJD is pretty much mandatory. Neuts, webs, drones, MJD and sometimes 100mn cruiser/BC fits is the way to escape/kill frigs. Damped down by a maulus/kite gang? MJD out. Garmur got you pointed at 70km? MJD out. You can't just seem to hit that 1 frig that is holding you for friends? MJD out. That 1 frig has a scram? Neut him out while aligned and wait for tackle to drop and warp away.

There are ways to do it, but you need to pick the right ship for the job. Dropping 400m in faction mods on a ship not designed for it and then being agitated on the forums is not the way to do it.


Ya, I think I finally have a fit that may work. I think im gonna try snakes and an AB. You have a really good point with being able to be faster then the ab frigates.

You are the only person who has given me relevant advice besides "pick a new ship". What is your advice about making the ship capable of being faster with an AB? You think double web with AB and snakes will do it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2015-10-03 17:07:51 UTC
Amanda Guid wrote:


Ya, I think I finally have a fit that may work. I think im gonna try snakes and an AB. You have a really good point with being able to be faster then the ab frigates.

You are the only person who has given me relevant advice besides "pick a new ship". What is your advice about making the ship capable of being faster with an AB? You think double web with AB and snakes will do it?


Your weapons choice and flying tactics are of far greater concern, as said bigger is not better and the same is true of turrets.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#63 - 2015-10-03 17:09:22 UTC
Waste of breath tbh.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#64 - 2015-10-03 17:38:20 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
You are the only person who has given me relevant advice besides "pick a new ship".
The advice has been to pick the right tool, it's you that insists on using a hammer as a spanner.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-10-03 18:02:24 UTC
Captain Brownfinger wrote:
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.


Large turret ships can barely hit orbitting frigates or destroyers with tracking bonused hulls and webs. If you want to solo in a BS you use a drone boat or an application fit missile boat; or you use undersized weapons.

Large turrets are utterly useless against small targets unless you are in an MJD Vindicator, and even then you will struggle to hit frigates at 500m. The ONLY thing that keeps a turret BS with a proper pvp fit from being solo'd by a frigate is heavy neut, as many frigates can easily tank and blap unbonused drones.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-10-03 18:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
baltec1 wrote:
Amanda Guid wrote:


Ya, I think I finally have a fit that may work. I think im gonna try snakes and an AB. You have a really good point with being able to be faster then the ab frigates.

You are the only person who has given me relevant advice besides "pick a new ship". What is your advice about making the ship capable of being faster with an AB? You think double web with AB and snakes will do it?


Your weapons choice and flying tactics are of far greater concern, as said bigger is not better and the same is true of turrets.


Are u suggesting I fit small weapons on a cruiser hull>? or just use missile and drone boats?

Problem with fitting small guns on a cruiser hull is the terrible optimal. Small guns work on frigates because they have the speed and mobility to keep within the pitiful optimal of small guns. A cruiser does not. Good luck keeping any frigate in your piddly 1000m optimal while flying a slow cruiser hull. They will laugh and turn the other way, out burn you from your web/scram and peace out.

Not to mentioned all 5 guns are unbonused, so your dps would be terrible. Fail
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-10-03 18:03:26 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Captain Brownfinger wrote:
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.


Large turret ships can barely hit orbitting frigates or destroyers with tracking bonused hulls and webs. If you want to solo in a BS you use a drone boat or an application fit missile boat; or you use undersized weapons.

Large turrets are utterly useless against small targets unless you are in an MJD Vindicator, and even then you will struggle to hit frigates at 500m. The ONLY thing that keeps a turret BS with a proper pvp fit from being solo'd by a frigate is heavy neut, as many frigates can easily tank and blap unbonused drones.


Thank you for being the voice of reason.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#68 - 2015-10-03 18:51:58 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:


How was I to know when engaging him that he was TD fit? .


Because it was a hookbill and that is about as basic an assumption as you can make in pvp, right next to curse has neuts and garmur will be linked.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-10-03 18:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Here is the actual problem with the current meta. The whole concept of angular velocity and sig radius verse tracking is too easily abused and exploitable. It is too easy for a small fast ship to make their sig radius next to nothing through fitting and links, at the same time as making their speed ridiculous. The combination of which makes them untouchable by even SMALL weapons, let alone medium or large weapons. Throw in a tracking disruptor and you are near invulnerable.

Experienced frigate and dessie pilots know this fact and they exploit it daily, then they come on the forums and say "everything is working as intended, learn to play." Just like t3 dessies are working as intended right? That's why all you see in FW and small gang is blobs of t3 dessies. Not because their unbalanced and OP though right? Just working as intended! Give me a flipping break

No, I am not a newb. A year ago I posted about the flaws of missile damage application, got the same responses from trolls. "You are bad, learn to play" A year later come the missile damage application changes. Said the same thing about the poor state of BS. Got the same responses, "your bad, learn to play." Now here you see the public outcry that BS are in a bad state and need fixing., including responses by CCP that they are working on it.

I am not new, I do know what I am talking about.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#70 - 2015-10-03 19:02:02 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Captain Brownfinger wrote:
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.


Large turret ships can barely hit orbitting frigates or destroyers with tracking bonused hulls and webs. If you want to solo in a BS you use a drone boat or an application fit missile boat; or you use undersized weapons.

Large turrets are utterly useless against small targets unless you are in an MJD Vindicator, and even then you will struggle to hit frigates at 500m. The ONLY thing that keeps a turret BS with a proper pvp fit from being solo'd by a frigate is heavy neut, as many frigates can easily tank and blap unbonused drones.


Sorry but battleships are not meant to be anti frigate ships, it's not a problem that battleships need to fit undersized guns if they want to go looking for frigate gangs to blap, that is WAI. Battleships are not helpless against frigates either, a frigate can be neuted, target painted, double webbed, small droned, ECM droned or just plain tanked until you reach a gate. Sure, not all BS can/do fit neuts, but I would suggest that soloing in a BS would be better in one that can.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#71 - 2015-10-03 19:02:52 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:


I am not new, I do know what I am talking about.


But had no idea that a hookbill might be fit with a TD ? Shocked ok pal.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2015-10-03 19:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Portmanteau wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:


I am not new, I do know what I am talking about.


But had no idea that a hookbill might be fit with a TD ? Shocked ok pal.


I have killed several hookbills in my day "pal" that's the only one with a TD I have encountered. Check my killmail pal

P.S any frig can fit a TD its not standard fit, and unlike the other ships you mentioned, the hookbill does not get any bonuses to TD. So why would it be standard. Just stfu.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-10-03 19:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Portmanteau wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Captain Brownfinger wrote:
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.


Large turret ships can barely hit orbitting frigates or destroyers with tracking bonused hulls and webs. If you want to solo in a BS you use a drone boat or an application fit missile boat; or you use undersized weapons.

Large turrets are utterly useless against small targets unless you are in an MJD Vindicator, and even then you will struggle to hit frigates at 500m. The ONLY thing that keeps a turret BS with a proper pvp fit from being solo'd by a frigate is heavy neut, as many frigates can easily tank and blap unbonused drones.


Sorry but battleships are not meant to be anti frigate ships, it's not a problem that battleships need to fit undersized guns if they want to go looking for frigate gangs to blap, that is WAI. Battleships are not helpless against frigates either, a frigate can be neuted, target painted, double webbed, small droned, ECM droned or just plain tanked until you reach a gate. Sure, not all BS can/do fit neuts, but I would suggest that soloing in a BS would be better in one that can.


A BS can hardly hit a CRUISER that is double webbed and painted, they don't stand a chance of hitting a FRIGATE under any condition, unless they are 30km out and get lucky. Light drones are a f**king joke unless they are launched from a drone boat with bonuses. So wtf are lights gonna do to anything but a t1 frigate?? Seriously, just stop.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#74 - 2015-10-03 19:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Amanda Guido wrote:


P.S any frig can fit a TD its not standard fit, and unlike the other ships you mentioned, the hookbill does not get any bonuses to TD. So why would it be standard. Just stfu.


That right there shows you know literally zip about prevalent fits in frigate pvp. The reason hookbills so often come with TDs is because of the extra midslot and strength of unbonused TDs. You should really know this, it's basic stuff.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-10-03 19:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Portmanteau wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:


P.S any frig can fit a TD its not standard fit, and unlike the other ships you mentioned, the hookbill does not get any bonuses to TD. So why would it be standard. Just stfu.


That right there shows you know literally zip about prevalent fits in frigate pvp. The reason hookbills so often come with TDs is because of the 4th midslot and strength of unbonused TDs. You should really know this, it's basic stuff.




There are hulls that get bonuses to TD, the hookbill is not one of them. The mid slots of a hookbill, a shield tank, are used for tank, prop, web, and scram. U are sacrificing something to fit a td. You really should know this, its basic stuff
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#76 - 2015-10-03 19:16:37 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:


P.S any frig can fit a TD its not standard fit, and unlike the other ships you mentioned, the hookbill does not get any bonuses to TD. So why would it be standard. Just stfu.


That right there shows you know literally zip about prevalent fits in frigate pvp. The reason hookbills so often come with TDs is because of the 4th midslot and strength of unbonused TDs. You should really know this, it's basic stuff.




There are hulls that get bonuses to TD, the hookbill is not one of them. The mid slots of a hookbill, a shield tank, are used for tank, prop, web, and scram. U are sacrificing something to fit a td. You really should know this, its basic stuff


BTW it's 5 mids, my error and you didn't even pick up on it :) regardless, hookbills even with no bonus to TD, are often fit with TDs, it's quite common place, same with with condors, slashers, none of them bonused for TD
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-10-03 19:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Portmanteau wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:


P.S any frig can fit a TD its not standard fit, and unlike the other ships you mentioned, the hookbill does not get any bonuses to TD. So why would it be standard. Just stfu.


That right there shows you know literally zip about prevalent fits in frigate pvp. The reason hookbills so often come with TDs is because of the 4th midslot and strength of unbonused TDs. You should really know this, it's basic stuff.




There are hulls that get bonuses to TD, the hookbill is not one of them. The mid slots of a hookbill, a shield tank, are used for tank, prop, web, and scram. U are sacrificing something to fit a td. You really should know this, its basic stuff


BTW it's 5 mids, my error and you didn't even pick up on it :) regardless, hookbills even with no bonus to TD, are often fit with TDs, it's quite common place, same with with condors, slashers, none of them bonused for TD


All the ships you mentioned, condor, slasher, are kites you fool. Hence why they fit TDs.... the hookbill is a brawler. Your faulty info not mine on the number of mids. Tank generally takes up more then one slot
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#78 - 2015-10-03 19:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Amanda Guido wrote:


All the ships you mentioned, condor, slasher, are kites you fool. Hence why they fit TDs.... the hookbill is a brawler. Your faulty info not mine on the number of mids. Tank generally takes up more then one slot


Slasher is a kiting ship ? It's primarily a sig/speed tanking brawler that often fits a neut or a TD. The fact that a condor usually is a kiting ship has no bearing on your point, you were saying that the lack of TD bonus implies there will be no TD fit to the ship, that is clearly not the case, condors, hookbills, slashers... all commonly found with unbonused TDs fit to them, despite what your "experience" tells you.

If you are going to try to solo in a cruiser or BS, and all power to you if you are, I suggest you familiarize yourself with some common fits that while maybe not ubiquitous, are still likely and still a threat to your survival. When I fly a rail or beam or other bad tracking fit, hookbills, slashers and the like set alarm bells off as a possibly bad engagement. It doesn't mean I won't take the fight, but it's stuff you should know to help you decide. Battleships/cruisers do not need reworking to kill frigates because you don't know the potential threats.
Captain Brownfinger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2015-10-03 20:36:37 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Captain Brownfinger wrote:
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.


Large turret ships can barely hit orbitting frigates or destroyers with tracking bonused hulls and webs. If you want to solo in a BS you use a drone boat or an application fit missile boat; or you use undersized weapons.

Large turrets are utterly useless against small targets unless you are in an MJD Vindicator, and even then you will struggle to hit frigates at 500m. The ONLY thing that keeps a turret BS with a proper pvp fit from being solo'd by a frigate is heavy neut, as many frigates can easily tank and blap unbonused drones.


/facepalm
/cry
I have no more words for the ridiculousness in this thread anymore.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2015-10-03 20:58:10 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Amanda Guid wrote:


Ya, I think I finally have a fit that may work. I think im gonna try snakes and an AB. You have a really good point with being able to be faster then the ab frigates.

You are the only person who has given me relevant advice besides "pick a new ship". What is your advice about making the ship capable of being faster with an AB? You think double web with AB and snakes will do it?


Your weapons choice and flying tactics are of far greater concern, as said bigger is not better and the same is true of turrets.


Are u suggesting I fit small weapons on a cruiser hull>? or just use missile and drone boats?

Problem with fitting small guns on a cruiser hull is the terrible optimal. Small guns work on frigates because they have the speed and mobility to keep within the pitiful optimal of small guns. A cruiser does not. Good luck keeping any frigate in your piddly 1000m optimal while flying a slow cruiser hull. They will laugh and turn the other way, out burn you from your web/scram and peace out.

Not to mentioned all 5 guns are unbonused, so your dps would be terrible. Fail


No I am saying stop thinking max dps and start thinking max application, so drop the neutrons and use electrons, fly your ship to get max transversal.