These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The bad mechanics of high sec ganking

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mag's
Azn Empire
#21 - 2015-10-01 10:03:33 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
So far, you've failed to show any problem.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-10-01 10:05:03 UTC
To be fair he's demonstrated a number of problems, just none related to the topic at hand Lol
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2015-10-01 10:05:47 UTC
afkalt wrote:
To be fair he's demonstrated a number of problems, just none related to the topic at hand Lol
Damn it, I had a mouth full of coffee. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#24 - 2015-10-01 10:06:12 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:

This is the part where you are not going to like my argument. I am asking for every ship to not be attackable in high sec unless you have a war. There are plenty of places in eve for non consensual pvp (wh space, null and low sec AND high sec if you have a war active). If you want to kill people in high sec declare war.

I'm just using freighters as an extreme example.
Well, the thing is, that is not going to happen. That is not consistent with the core design of the game. Ships are suppose to die. You are not entitled to 100% safety or have the right to fly wherever you choose. If there are too many gankers for you to defend yourself from, it is best that you choose to avoid them, just like everyone else in this game does when they are faced with a overwhelmingly superior force.

Let's all take some time to bask some more in the thoughts of CCP Falcon:

CCP Falcon wrote:
I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.

Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.

Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.

That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.

EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.

Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight :)




The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-10-01 10:17:28 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
So far, you've failed to show any problem.


I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!


Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-10-01 10:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Black Pedro wrote:
Wall of text


Killing in high sec might be a point i'll concede won't ever stop happening. You know what, keep it in there if you feel the sandbox might be diluted beyond the point of no return without it.

But the point still stands, your suggestions of defence against ganks are no defence at all.

Edit: Again quoting Falcon when he was already very clear that being able to defend yourself is a core principle of this game in which he loves. You suggested that point too I believe.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#27 - 2015-10-01 10:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
So far, you've failed to show any problem.


I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!


No you put forward a premise, that was false. Due in no small part, to you not including all the relevant information. You can avoid facts as much as you like. But no one has ever lost the ability to defend themselves.

If you want to make assumptions and jump to conclusions, then be my guest. But it will carry no weight here.

I have to ask, when did you buy that character?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-10-01 10:34:38 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I have to ask, when did you buy that character?


Mag's my friend I created this char 3 months before you did and almost a full year before you joined MASS. And probably like you, I have done it all. High sec ganked, been ganked, scammed (never been scammed), Pirated, killed BOB haulers in delve, FC'ed. I have done the lot.


So please tell me how you would defend your freighter against a bumping mach and 40 catalysts? Cos If I am missing some fundamental I would like to know.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-10-01 10:41:18 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
So far, you've failed to show any problem.


I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!




so whats your solution to this are you saying that people cant bring the right amount of ships to kill something within a given time? is efficiency actually a problem? how do you fix being efficient?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mag's
Azn Empire
#30 - 2015-10-01 10:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I have to ask, when did you buy that character?


Mag's my friend I created this char 3 months before you did and almost a full year before you joined MASS. And probably like you, I have done it all. High sec ganked, been ganked, scammed (never been scammed), Pirated, killed BOB haulers in delve, FC'ed. I have done the lot.


So please tell me how you would defend your freighter against a bumping mach and 40 catalysts? Cos If I am missing some fundamental I would like to know.
So you you bought it back, after selling it in 2006 to Shooq?
Oh and Mag's wasn't my first character, another was but I sold him. He was born on the 29th of May 2004, so older than yours. Blink
You can have his name if you ask.

To your question:
You have a friend that scouts and webs you. A big part of defence, is never allowing the enemy a chance.
Then if you happen to be very very unlucky and do it wrong, you can use your friend as a warp point when being bumped. You can also bring more friends along and have them rep your ass, or ECM/shoot the -10 gankers when they show up. Or you can have friends shoot the bumper.

Either way, that's called defending yourself. But as with everything in Eve, nothing is guaranteed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gaara's sniper
MLG1337420BlazeIt360TitanNoScopeCorporationSWAG
#31 - 2015-10-01 10:50:38 UTC
This thread is rated S for Salty
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-10-01 10:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Lan Wang wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
So far, you've failed to show any problem.


I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!




so whats your solution to this are you saying that people cant bring the right amount of ships to kill something within a given time? is efficiency actually a problem? how do you fix being efficient?


Do you read what you are quoting?

To be clear, game mechanics are the problem.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-10-01 10:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Mag's wrote:
So you you bought it back, after selling it in 2006 to Shooq?
Oh and Mag's wasn't my first character, another was but I sold him. Blink

You have a friend that scouts and webs you. A big part of defence, is never allowing the enemy a chance.
Then if you happen to be very very unlucky and do it wrong, you can use your friend as a warp point when being bumped. You can also bring more friends along and have them rep your ass, or ECM/shoot the -10 gankers when they show up. Or you can have friends shoot the bumper.

Either way, that's called defending yourself. But as with everything in Eve, nothing is guaranteed.


We all don't feel the need to sell our chars, I don't know who shooq is but you are clearly misinformed.

Having logis could be a valid counter but I am not familiar with them so how many logis would you need to rep 28k DPS?

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-10-01 11:02:16 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!


yes i read this, there is no problem, its merely people being efficient to complete a task, its not rocket science

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#35 - 2015-10-01 11:02:37 UTC
Seliah wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not actually suggesting anything, are you ?



I think he's suggesting that moving a frieghter through null is safer than moving it through HS.

If this is true then the risk/reward balance of the game would require null anoms to be nerfed into useless and lvl 4 missions need a massive buff. Let's get this done!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#36 - 2015-10-01 11:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Christopher Multsanti wrote:


We all don't feel the need to sell our chars, I don't know who shooq is but you are clearly misinformed.

Having logis could be a valid counter but I am not familiar with them so how many logis would you need to rep 28k DPS?
Shooq offered 3.2 billion buyout to close the auction, you did 4 minutes later.
I just wondered when you bought it back, seeing as you claim to be the original owner and all.

It's not about tanking it all, it's about breaking their chance of a successful gank by changing the odds. They need to apply a set amount of damage before concord arrives, you just need to defer some of that.
Why I need to explain this to a 2004 player, is rather odd tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-10-01 11:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:


We all don't feel the need to sell our chars, I don't know who shooq is but you are clearly misinformed.

Having logis could be a valid counter but I am not familiar with them so how many logis would you need to rep 28k DPS?
Shooq offered 3.2 billion buyout to close the auction, you did 4 minutes later.
I just wondered when you bought it back, seeing as you claim to be the original owner and all.

It's not about tanking it all, it's about breaking their chance of a successful gank by changing the odds. They need to apply a set amount of damage before concord arrives, you just need to defer some of that.
Why I need to explain this to a 2004 player, is rather odd tbh.


That character was called Tavernier, as stated in the very first line of that post. An alt given to me by a friend that I no longer needed.

Did you really just spend your time searching for that thread?

But sorry, you didn't answer my question, how many logis and support ships do you need to fly a freighter through high sec safely?

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-10-01 11:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Lan Wang wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
I have put forth an argument in which no one can defend themselves against a bumper and 40 catalysts. An argument which you cannot counter and now you claim there is no problem. GG you!


yes i read this, there is no problem, its merely people being efficient to complete a task, its not rocket science


Again no. The part I highlighted and underlined was the part I suggested you read which was: Player behavior is not the issue.

Not being able to defend your freighter against those 40 man fleets is the issue. i.e Game Mechanics.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#39 - 2015-10-01 11:20:05 UTC
I'm all for ganking, I'd just like the beach ball mechanics to be removed from freighters. I don't want collision damage, but when a weeeee little subcapital bumps a capital ship, it should mostly bounce off and the capital should should only be affected a small amount. (Imagine throwing a ping pong ball really hard into my forehead - I'm not going to go flying across the room.... my head is just too dense compared to the ping pong ball)

I'm working on some breakthrough physics.

(m1)(v1) = (m2)(v2)

I think if the universe were to start using this then energy would be conserved. I'm woking on a bigger more general equation that would conserve all forms of energy. If anyone would like to help with this project I think it would be awesome! This is cutting edge math and physics that would make the world a better place.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#40 - 2015-10-01 11:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
That character was called Tavernier, as stated in the very first line of that post. An alt given to me by a friend that I no longer needed.

Did you really just spend your time searching for that thread?

But sorry, you didn't answer my question, how many logis and support ships do you need to fly a freighter through high sec safely?
Ahh indeed it was. My bad, I took the current rules and applied them retrospectively. Forgetting things were different back then. I was wrong, sorry.
I just eve searched your name and jumped through the numbers. 50 lands you on that sale. I just find your stance perplexing, considering your age. You seem rather, naive.

I did answer your question, I'm not going to fill in the blanks here for you. You made a claim and have yet to back it up. I have given you more than one option.

Look you have a choice. You either deem your haul to be worth having friends to help, or you do it solo. That's your decision to make, but that does not mean the ability to defend yourself is lacking, or missing completely.
Eve has always been about choices, whether it be fittings or how many you bring to a fight. You don't always make the right one.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.