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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A kind request for metrics on warfare link use
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#61 - 2015-10-09 17:04:20 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:


B-but muh true solo! That's really the gist of all those who whine about links being bad.


You may think ogb killing off solo pvp is no big deal, but I can tell you that I used to have a blast doing solo pvp. And ccp shouldn't think killing it off is not going to have an effect on the numbers of people playing the game.


Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:

Why are off-grid boosters a problem?


1) Do you think dragging your alt everywhere you go is fun gameplay? Healthy people play computer games for the fun of it. Forcing players to do things that are not fun in a game is always a problem.

2) Also it is insulting to the player base to say "pay us an extra $15 every month and you will get a 35% boost to everything." How many suckers do they think are in the playerbase? I think they are finding there are fewer than they might have hoped.

And no people who fly ships risking expensive fittings/implants is not the same. If we could fit crews or something that gave the same bonuses as ogb I would not have as much of a problem with them. (assuming of course you could only get one or the other) The fact that the only way to get those bonuses is to pay an extra $15/month real money and the fact that you have to engage in lame game play by dragging your alt everywhere are 2 knocks against ogb that do not apply to any other bonuses in game.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#62 - 2015-10-09 17:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:


B-but muh true solo! That's really the gist of all those who whine about links being bad.


You may think ogb killing off solo pvp is no big deal, but I can tell you that I used to have a blast doing solo pvp. And ccp shouldn't think killing it off is not going to have an effect on the numbers of people playing the game.


I just dont think solo pvp is a big deal. Play however you want, but dont degrade many other types of group content just to even up the odds in a niche activity where the fundamental appeal to those that do it well is that it is fighting against the odds.

Cearain wrote:
1) Do you think dragging your alt everywhere you go is fun gameplay? Healthy people play computer games for the fun of it. Forcing players to do things that are not fun in a game is always a problem.

2) Also it is insulting to the player base to say "pay us an extra $15 every month and you will get a 35% boost to everything." How many suckers do they think are in the playerbase? I think they are finding there are fewer than they might have hoped.

And no people who fly ships risking expensive fittings/implants is not the same. If we could fit crews or something that gave the same bonuses as ogb I would not have as much of a problem with them. (assuming of course you could only get one or the other) The fact that the only way to get those bonuses is to pay an extra $15/month real money and the fact that you have to engage in lame game play by dragging your alt everywhere are 2 knocks against ogb that do not apply to any other bonuses in game.




1) Yes, i enjoy playing with multiple accounts. If your first argument against boosts is you trying to protect people from what is not fun, then i appreciate that. But dont worry about us, surprisingly, not everyone has the same constricting standard of fun that you have.

2) As i have said before, the characters i have on other accounts that i use for eyes or cynos are every bit as important as my booster alt and have saved me on many occasions. If your second argument against OGB is a concern for other peoples financial situations, then i appreciate that. But dont worry about us, we got it covered.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#63 - 2015-10-09 18:24:54 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:


B-but muh true solo! That's really the gist of all those who whine about links being bad.


You may think ogb killing off solo pvp is no big deal, but I can tell you that I used to have a blast doing solo pvp. And ccp shouldn't think killing it off is not going to have an effect on the numbers of people playing the game.


Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:

Why are off-grid boosters a problem?


1) Do you think dragging your alt everywhere you go is fun gameplay? Healthy people play computer games for the fun of it. Forcing players to do things that are not fun in a game is always a problem.

2) Also it is insulting to the player base to say "pay us an extra $15 every month and you will get a 35% boost to everything." How many suckers do they think are in the playerbase? I think they are finding there are fewer than they might have hoped.

And no people who fly ships risking expensive fittings/implants is not the same. If we could fit crews or something that gave the same bonuses as ogb I would not have as much of a problem with them. (assuming of course you could only get one or the other) The fact that the only way to get those bonuses is to pay an extra $15/month real money and the fact that you have to engage in lame game play by dragging your alt everywhere are 2 knocks against ogb that do not apply to any other bonuses in game.




I never* fly unscouted because I enjoy winning. Health is subjective - similar to every point you've made so far. We disagree and I'm okay with that. There's room for your failure in my world but you seem unwilling to accommodate my successes and that's bad.

CCP wants you to bring a sidekick - they actually had a marketing campaign aimed at that. Level up.

Thank me later :D
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#64 - 2015-10-09 21:46:37 UTC
We are not talking about having alt scouts we are talking about dragging an alt around that you will just warp to a safe spot.

Ok sure different people like different things. You guys both claim to enjoy dragging an alt account everywhere you go. You both seem to think you are "winners" by doing that, and I am somehow losing by refusing to do that.

Do you think one alt account to pay for and drag around is the proper balance? Or is eve nothing but better the more alt accounts you have to pay for and drag around with you?

Would eve really be great if you could "win" by getting 525% bonuses by paying an extra $225 dollars a month and dragging 15 alts with you everywhere you go?

What would you think if they allowed 3 alts for about an extra $30-$45 a month which would give you 105% bonuses? Would that be the sweet spot?

Why don't you think we get proposals for ccp allow us to get even more bonuses for having even more alts hidden in safe spots? I think the answer is obvious, but I am curious what you guys think.




Crosi Wesdo wrote:

I just dont think solo pvp is a big deal. Play however you want, but dont degrade many other types of group content just to even up the odds in a niche activity where the fundamental appeal to those that do it well is that it is fighting against the odds.


Solo pvp is indeed becoming niche due to ccp's choices of mechanics. But you would be the last person I would look to when wondering what the appeal of flying solo is. I have literally *never* seen you leave the skirts of your booster alt.

I will tell you that I flew solo because I often did not have time to wait for gangs to form. Also because having multiple screens completely destroys the immersion. And because it is comparatively easier to find good fights the fewer ships you bring. The fundamental appeal is not to fight against the odds. Most solo players will be happy to take an easy gank when they get it. But unlike those in a blob they also like the occasional fight that is not just a gank.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#65 - 2015-10-09 22:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
My alt is also a perfect prober, so yeah, it provides me with quite a bit of content above its main role. I guess you want me to fit an expanded probe launcher to my garmur?

And solo has always been niche. IMO its more common now that it has ever been.

And people who fly in fleets are only looking for easy kills?

I really cannot relate to anything you ever say mate. Perhaps you have just been in the wrong crowds.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#66 - 2015-10-09 23:15:16 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
My alt is also a perfect prober, so yeah, it provides me with quite a bit of content above its main role. 1)I guess you want me to fit an expanded probe launcher to my garmur?

And solo has always been niche. IMO its more common now that it has ever been.

2) And people who fly in fleets are only looking for easy kills?

I really cannot relate to anything you ever say mate. Perhaps you have just been in the wrong crowds.


Here I will answer your questions:

1)No Probe launchers are not really necessary to find fights in faction war low sec.

2)No, I never said everyone in a fleet is just looking for ganks.

Now why don't you answer my questions from my last post?

You claim it's fun to drag this alt around. Would it not be even more fun to drag more alts around for more bonuses while they are safed up? Could we ever reach a point where even you reject the stupidity? If so, how many alts?



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-10-10 00:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Estella Osoka wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I really think cancers like off grid boosting are why we are seeing numbers decline. Yes it will take some short term pain to get rid of the cancer but the long term decline will hopefully end, and even reverse.

BTW I listened to a podcast where ccp fozzie said they are making some headway on the technical issues of off grid boosters. He could not give us a date through.


Really? Off grid boosting is why people are leaving? You don't think it could possibly be because of nerf to capital ship movement (jump fatigue)? Or maybe all the new changes to null sov? Roll


Cap changes make no difference to new players.

Off grid boosts affects everyone, and newer players are at a severe disadvantage with the current system. Why boosts are allowed off grid is beyond me anyway.

It's kind of immersion breaking when CCP force you to multibox with links to have a chance in solo pvp.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#68 - 2015-10-10 01:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
My alt is also a perfect prober, so yeah, it provides me with quite a bit of content above its main role. 1)I guess you want me to fit an expanded probe launcher to my garmur?

And solo has always been niche. IMO its more common now that it has ever been.

2) And people who fly in fleets are only looking for easy kills?

I really cannot relate to anything you ever say mate. Perhaps you have just been in the wrong crowds.


Here I will answer your questions:

1)No Probe launchers are not really necessary to find fights in faction war low sec.

2)No, I never said everyone in a fleet is just looking for ganks.

Now why don't you answer my questions from my last post?

You claim it's fun to drag this alt around. Would it not be even more fun to drag more alts around for more bonuses while they are safed up? Could we ever reach a point where even you reject the stupidity? If so, how many alts?





Its very touching that you are so concerned with my enjoyment of a game. But you really should not worry yourself. As for a specific number of alts, i often run 6 accounts, ive known people who run 2 or 3 times that many when isboxer was permitted. I dont presume to tell people how many accounts they should find optimal enjoyment in running in eve.

If im trying to stop a farmer from plexing my homesystem who safes at the first sign of danger, or catch a guy at a tactical or even, dare i suggest it, disrupt someones booster, probes are essential. Its becoming very clear that you just want everyone to conform to your very narrow and inept play style. The same play style that has left you not playing.


As for the guy above commenting on being competitive solo, solo by definition is not competitive because eve is not a solo game. If there are so many people out there looking for fair solo fights, why not all find each other and just sit in high sec dueling all day so we dont have to hear you crying all the time. Pretty sure we wont notice that you are gone since most dont do much pvp anyway..

And new guys should not be given the impression that they can just go out and compete in solo. Theres lots of reasons that is often not the case. Even CCP knows that the key to player retention is getting them into group content, and CCP are probably the least informed group involved in this game.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#69 - 2015-10-10 03:04:56 UTC
Crosi

You can just say you don't want to answer the questions I put to you. You don't have to spread false information about me.

I have never said or implied anyone should play a certain way. I have said and continue to say that given the mechanics ccp uses in the game, it is understandable why people feel the need to have multiple alt accounts either to provide boosts or to plex in empty frigates, whatever.

I don't and never have blamed any players for playing the way they do. If you say you like dragging around your alts thats fine. There is no question that ccp's mechanics are pushing people that way. But as they push in that direction it is not surprising to see lots of people losing interest in the game. I am not saying that is the only reason for the decline and I don't mean to exagerate.

But just step back and pretend you were going to sell a game. Would you want to advertise that in order to be competitive people would have to pay for multiple character accounts? If you answered no to that question, then ask your self why you think it would be bad marketing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#70 - 2015-10-10 09:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi

You can just say you don't want to answer the questions I put to you. You don't have to spread false information about me.

I have never said or implied anyone should play a certain way. I have said and continue to say that given the mechanics ccp uses in the game, it is understandable why people feel the need to have multiple alt accounts either to provide boosts or to plex in empty frigates, whatever.

I don't and never have blamed any players for playing the way they do. If you say you like dragging around your alts thats fine. There is no question that ccp's mechanics are pushing people that way. But as they push in that direction it is not surprising to see lots of people losing interest in the game. I am not saying that is the only reason for the decline and I don't mean to exagerate.

But just step back and pretend you were going to sell a game. Would you want to advertise that in order to be competitive people would have to pay for multiple character accounts? If you answered no to that question, then ask your self why you think it would be bad marketing.


I did answer your question. I said the number of alts peaple enjoy using is up to them. And if referring to things you say is the same a spreading lies then i have finally arrived at an understanding of you.

I would suggest that boosts and alts in general are not responsible for any meaningful number of people quitting.

At least out of the many people ive see quit its usually.real life commitments, lack of challenge, no more goals to complete, bitter vet syndrome or in the case of newer players they often just dont like the game enough to dedicate the time it takes to progress. Which along with its learning curve an general lack of user friendliness i would expect to be the main reason for bad retention throughout EVEs history spanning back to well before boosters existed.

I know you want to blame all EVEs problems on things you dont like but it really is not constructive.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#71 - 2015-10-10 10:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

I did answer your question. I said the number of alts peaple enjoy using is up to them. .


Of course it is. But that isn't my question. You claimed it was fun to pay an extra $15 to drag your ogb alt around with you everywhere to get your roughly 35% bonuses (although that is quite conservative). So I asked you if you think eve would be even better/more fun if you could pay even more per month and drag even more alts with you everywhere for even more bonuses. E.g., if eve is so much more fun with your one ogb alt wouldn't it be even more fun to drag around 3 alts that you pay $45/month for 105% bonuses?



Crosi Wesdo wrote:

And if referring to things you say is the same a spreading lies then i have finally arrived at an understanding of you..


I never said everyone has to play the game the way I like.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

I would suggest that boosts and alts in general are not responsible for any meaningful number of people quitting.

At least out of the many people ive see quit its usually.real life commitments, lack of challenge, no more goals to complete, bitter vet syndrome or in the case of newer players they often just dont like the game enough to dedicate the time it takes to progress. Which along with its learning curve an general lack of user friendliness i would expect to be the main reason for bad retention throughout EVEs history spanning back to well before boosters existed.


As if these alternate problems you cite are not agravated or even caused by the requirements to drag around alt accounts to be competetive in eve.

Crosi, you keep avoiding the questions I ask including the one where I ask if you were marketing a game would you try to advertise that in order to be competitive you need to pay for and multibox several alt character accounts?

You may want to actually think about the actual questions I asked in earnest instead of just dancing around the issue that is so obvious to so many including many in ccp. At least the people in ccp know enough to at least say they want to get rid of ogb. People can question how committed they are to it. (I am pretty sure they will get rid of them as soon as they can) But you never see anyone from ccp saying yeah we want to design the game so that in order to be competitive you must pay for an extra alt (or 6) and drag him with you to safe spots everywhere you go.

Do you think ccp should have aura telling new players they should purchase an alt account so they can drag it around with them to safe spots in every system they go and get large bonuses?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#72 - 2015-10-10 14:45:01 UTC
You cant keep asking different questions then accuse me of not answering them before you even posed them lol.

And yes, i usually have 6 active accounts. I generate fun with this number of accounts. Its hard for me to talk for how many accounts other people have.

And no, im not going to get into a hypothetical about mechanics that dont exist regarding multiple boosters with stacked buffs. If your best argument revolves around a hypothetical scenario that will never happen and whos mechanics are not part of the game then it really is a terrible point.

Though yes, so as not to be accused of not answering your question, i agree that multiple boosting alts with the same type of links should not stack their bonus. We should both be happy that this is not the case now and never will be.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-10-10 15:58:57 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Reah Darknorth wrote:
The fact that a player can just buy an alt account with a T3 and significantly boost his PvP ability with said alt is really a bit insulting.

If that wasn't bad enough, fleet assist links also give The Blob even bigger advantages than they already have. As if it wasn't hard enough to fight in 1vX situations, they also have an absurd force multiplier on their side in the form of a 6-link Tengu.

Putting fleet links on grid is not enough. They should simply be removed from this game.

I mean picture that for a second. An Eve Online without fleet links. No more dragging the Loki alt around with you everywhere you go. No more 70km warp disrupting Garmurs. It would be so much cleaner, so much simpler. It would be so much more fair.


What's wrong with a frigate being able to tackle from 70km away? Didn't you prepare for that situation when you organized your fleet comp? Bring a Keres and damp it out from +100km away and jam it to hell and back with a Kitsune. Notice how both of these ships are in the same class as the Garmur? There's a counter to everything.

CCP should buff pilot skill before they nerf T3 links.


B-but muh true solo! That's really the gist of all those who whine about links being bad.


It's not even about solo. It's about a semi-AFK alt in a T3 being a required part of any mobile fleet doctrine. One that faces zero risk in highsec and limited risk in low and null.

Seriously, the fact that links give you fights against terrible blobbers who are too stupid to either dock up or bring their own links ×2 with a couple of drams or ceptors does not constitute an argument.

You are arguing that a mechanic creates content because it allows you to farm bad players for content. Well guess what? You will ALWAYS be able to farm bad players for content. Your dual damp garmur will only be marginally less good against e-uni and brave blobs when you have only HG Snakes to rely on.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-10-10 16:07:27 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
If this fit is OP ..

[GetRektFukBoi]
Brynn's Modified Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Inertial Stabilizers II

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control II
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II
Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Defensive - Warfare Processor


Liquid Ozone x100
Nanite Repair Paste x167
Sisters Combat Scanner Probe x8

but this fit is not...

[Proteus, Proteus]
1600mm Steel Plates II
Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

50MN Microwarpdrive II
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Small Capacitor Booster II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating

Hammerhead II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

Mjolnir Heavy Missile x26
Inferno Heavy Missile x30
Null M x5010
Void M x1466
Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile x314
Navy Cap Booster 400 x9

... I mean c'mon. If the other side shows up with T3 cruisers and you don't know how to beat it... the solution is not bleating in the night like a calf separated from it's mother. The solution is GTFO.

rabble rabble Sun Tzu rabble rabble


Fit 1 is untouchable in highsec except for a suicide gank. In lowsec I have to devote multiple players to catching it on a gate or a virtue prober to finding it at a safe. Best I'll do is probably force it to dock or cloak unless I bring enough Tornados to alpha you. We tried to tackle a booster Proteus last night by having people on both sides of a gate but it was able to insta-warp.

Fit 2 will provide a lovely killmail for a competent kiter in something like an Orthrus or ONI (though it will take you ages to die). Especially if Fit 1 (x2) isn't in system with you. Links will be the deciding factor in that fight, because your tackle range will be oppressive against an unlinked opponent.

Though, being a highsec merc you are probably fighting a retriever or a mission Raven and these things needn't worry you.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#75 - 2015-10-11 00:20:56 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Reah Darknorth wrote:
The fact that a player can just buy an alt account with a T3 and significantly boost his PvP ability with said alt is really a bit insulting.

If that wasn't bad enough, fleet assist links also give The Blob even bigger advantages than they already have. As if it wasn't hard enough to fight in 1vX situations, they also have an absurd force multiplier on their side in the form of a 6-link Tengu.

Putting fleet links on grid is not enough. They should simply be removed from this game.

I mean picture that for a second. An Eve Online without fleet links. No more dragging the Loki alt around with you everywhere you go. No more 70km warp disrupting Garmurs. It would be so much cleaner, so much simpler. It would be so much more fair.


What's wrong with a frigate being able to tackle from 70km away? Didn't you prepare for that situation when you organized your fleet comp? Bring a Keres and damp it out from +100km away and jam it to hell and back with a Kitsune. Notice how both of these ships are in the same class as the Garmur? There's a counter to everything.

CCP should buff pilot skill before they nerf T3 links.


B-but muh true solo! That's really the gist of all those who whine about links being bad.


It's not even about solo. It's about a semi-AFK alt in a T3 being a required part of any mobile fleet doctrine. One that faces zero risk in highsec and limited risk in low and null.

Seriously, the fact that links give you fights against terrible blobbers who are too stupid to either dock up or bring their own links ×2 with a couple of drams or ceptors does not constitute an argument.

You are arguing that a mechanic creates content because it allows you to farm bad players for content. Well guess what? You will ALWAYS be able to farm bad players for content. Your dual damp garmur will only be marginally less good against e-uni and brave blobs when you have only HG Snakes to rely on.



I don't fly my ships AFK... semi- or otherwise.

What makes you think there's no risk in High-Sec?

Farming... right. I'm not involved with FW because it's only a bad cough away from the AIDS Null-Sec is dealing with. I'm talking about using a squad of alts to scout for a fleet in search of targets.

We use links as needed because it's also nice to know that our 5-6 man fleet will be set up for success. If our opponents are unprepared or unsuspecting - good, that means my job will be made that much easier.

I am arguing that if a group is unprepared they are unprepared and should look at themselves before blaming game mechanics that were in place before they undocked.

Also... a damping Garmur o.0 ... no no.... a damping Keres and jamming Kitsune to handle the Garmur with 70km tackle. Again, planning and preparation.

Thank me later :D
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#76 - 2015-10-11 01:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Fit 1 is untouchable in highsec except for a suicide gank. In lowsec I have to devote multiple players to catching it on a gate or a virtue prober to finding it at a safe. Best I'll do is probably force it to dock or cloak unless I bring enough Tornados to alpha you. We tried to tackle a booster Proteus last night by having people on both sides of a gate but it was able to insta-warp.

Fit 2 will provide a lovely killmail for a competent kiter in something like an Orthrus or ONI (though it will take you ages to die). Especially if Fit 1 (x2) isn't in system with you. Links will be the deciding factor in that fight, because your tackle range will be oppressive against an unlinked opponent.

Though, being a highsec merc you are probably fighting a retriever or a mission Raven and these things needn't worry you.


Fit 1 - You're mainly right which is why NPC should be vulnerable to war decs. Also, I said gank the link boat. Perfect Astro skills and implants are the way to go - planning, preparation. Assume responsibility for your success.

Fit 2 - It is my job to find and kill targets not debate the morality of whether miners, missions runners or anybody else is prepared for me. Most of our fights are small gangs or solo so yes links are used as necessary. Most of the time we don't use them because Fit 1 can't keep up with Assault Frigates or Interceptors.

Thank me later :D
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#77 - 2015-10-11 01:48:47 UTC
So how about those metrics the OP requested? Seems like until we get those numbers all we have is subjective horseshit...

Thank me later :D
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#78 - 2015-10-11 05:48:20 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
If this fit is OP ..

[GetRektFukBoi]
Brynn's Modified Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Inertial Stabilizers II

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control II
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II
Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Defensive - Warfare Processor


Liquid Ozone x100
Nanite Repair Paste x167
Sisters Combat Scanner Probe x8

but this fit is not...

[Proteus, Proteus]
1600mm Steel Plates II
Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

50MN Microwarpdrive II
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Small Capacitor Booster II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating

Hammerhead II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

Mjolnir Heavy Missile x26
Inferno Heavy Missile x30
Null M x5010
Void M x1466
Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile x314
Navy Cap Booster 400 x9

... I mean c'mon. If the other side shows up with T3 cruisers and you don't know how to beat it... the solution is not bleating in the night like a calf separated from it's mother. The solution is GTFO.

rabble rabble Sun Tzu rabble rabble


Fit 1 is untouchable in highsec except for a suicide gank. In lowsec I have to devote multiple players to catching it on a gate or a virtue prober to finding it at a safe. Best I'll do is probably force it to dock or cloak unless I bring enough Tornados to alpha you. We tried to tackle a booster Proteus last night by having people on both sides of a gate but it was able to insta-warp.

Fit 2 will provide a lovely killmail for a competent kiter in something like an Orthrus or ONI (though it will take you ages to die). Especially if Fit 1 (x2) isn't in system with you. Links will be the deciding factor in that fight, because your tackle range will be oppressive against an unlinked opponent.

Though, being a highsec merc you are probably fighting a retriever or a mission Raven and these things needn't worry you.


Forgot to mention - if you force the link ship to cloak the boosts stop. See? You're on the right track - you just didn't know it.

Thank me later :D
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#79 - 2015-10-11 10:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Heres just a typical engagement from my experience.

I have a catalyst alt running a timer. A nano kite astero decloaks and tackles it and two worms show up on scan. My alt warps away as it has stabs.

They cry foul as though stabs were unfair but their 2 worm/astero combo would have been an honourable fight.

I enter system with my boosts and warp directly to the plex where there is still 2 worms and possibly a cloaked astero. I activate gate, they are happy at that point to take a punt on scramming me on the warp in. They didnt manage it and i have one of the two worms tackled.

The astero, who was not in the plex enters and starts to close angles but i manage to evade. I get the worm to low shields and the astero bails. The second worm stays till his friend dies and also gets tackled and killed.

Now, in the initial engagement the astero and 2 worms may have been on grid, but they chose to try and gank a month old character at literally zero risk to themselves.

I chose to warp in to 2 worms who were waiting, presumably overheated tackle at zero on the warp in. Pretty sure during this whole engagement i was taking the majority of the risk, with the luxury of the OGB mitigating that somewhat.

This was just the last in a dozen or so engagements yesterday where i warped in to as many as 15-20 hostiles using the boosts as a means for that to not just be suicide. Did they enjoy it? im not really concerned with that. With some effort could they stop me thus fixing the problem of my boosted kite garmur? Easily.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#80 - 2015-10-11 12:39:29 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Heres just a typical engagement from my experience.

I have a catalyst alt running a timer. A nano kite astero decloaks and tackles it and two worms show up on scan. My alt warps away as it has stabs.

They cry foul as though stabs were unfair but their 2 worm/astero combo would have been an honourable fight.

I enter system with my boosts and warp directly to the plex where there is still 2 worms and possibly a cloaked astero. I activate gate, they are happy at that point to take a punt on scramming me on the warp in. They didnt manage it and i have one of the two worms tackled.

The astero, who was not in the plex enters and starts to close angles but i manage to evade. I get the worm to low shields and the astero bails. The second worm stays till his friend dies and also gets tackled and killed.

Now, in the initial engagement the astero and 2 worms may have been on grid, but they chose to try and gank a month old character at literally zero risk to themselves.

I chose to warp in to 2 worms who were waiting, presumably overheated tackle at zero on the warp in. Pretty sure during this whole engagement i was taking the majority of the risk, with the luxury of the OGB mitigating that somewhat.

This was just the last in a dozen or so engagements yesterday where i warped in to as many as 15-20 hostiles using the boosts as a means for that to not just be suicide. Did they enjoy it? im not really concerned with that. With some effort could they stop me thus fixing the problem of my boosted kite garmur? Easily.


I think the heart of the "links are OP" argument comes down to expectation management. Being able to asses risk, size up a target and execute helps fill in as much of the gap as is reasonably possible. Of course, most plans are a list of things that were never meant to happen but it never hurts to think things through beforehand.

Thank me later :D