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Vanguard Skill Point Changes

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2015-09-24 19:23:18 UTC
Sharps wrote:
But seriously what is the game-breaking reason we can't simply give 350k to everyone and solve this?
Because there's quite literally nothing to solve.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#42 - 2015-09-24 19:24:20 UTC
Hahaha, this is like watching somebody throw a hissy fit in Lidel because the guy behind him found 20ยข on the ground.

Fantastic.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Zihao
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-09-24 19:24:47 UTC
400k is non-trivial when you have a couple mil sp to your name, but I'd argue anyone and everyone should get it. My understanding is that was the previous precedent with prior skill revamps.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#44 - 2015-09-24 19:26:36 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:

You really don't get it do you.
If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime.
The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.

No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.

There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.

New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.

When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day).
Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.

Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#45 - 2015-09-24 19:30:23 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for"
By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it?


That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion.


Actually in a way it does. You newbros got in after the 24 hour skillqueue and the unlimited skillqueue. You also got in after 2 months worth of learning skills had been removed (granted we did get SP reimbursement for that). You'll also not know what it's like to have to buy a new medical clone for a 100+ SP character.

What you call "your problem / fault" was just part of what EvE was like back in 2006, when I started. No reason for us vets to complain. The game changes constantly and we have to adapt or quit ... whining just exposes you to ridicule. That last one actually is the one thing that doesn't change.

BTW 5 month is not exactly vet ... not by a long shot.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-09-24 19:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:

You really don't get it do you.
If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime.
The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.

No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.

There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.

New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.

When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day).
Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.

Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?


I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand.

How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!".

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dude, most of us have forgotten to update our skillque for longer than this, I'm missing about a month worth of sp I "paid for"
By forgetting to sort myself out after a jump clone, do you see me whinging about it?


That's your problem/fault then. That has nothing to do with this discussion.


Actually in a way it does. You newbros got in after the 24 hour skillqueue and the unlimited skillqueue. You also got in after 2 months worth of learning skills had been removed (granted we did get SP reimbursement for that). You'll also not know what it's like to have to buy a new medical clone for a 100+ SP character.

What you call "your problem / fault" was just part of what EvE was like back in 2006, when I started. No reason for us vets to complain. The game changes constantly and we have to adapt or quit ... whining just exposes you to ridicule. That last one actually is the one thing that doesn't change.

BTW 5 month is not exactly vet ... not by a long shot.




Didn't mean to imply I personally am a vet. I'm clearly not.

I could happily adapt to a 24 hour skill queue. Again, if you can't be bothered to log in within 24 hours of your current skill finishing, then that is your fault. Having a skill removed that you have already trained isn't your fault. Spot the difference?

So did you think that CCP should have given you the SP back for the skills they removed?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#47 - 2015-09-24 19:41:44 UTC
400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP

350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-09-24 19:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Tau Cabalander wrote:
400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP

350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days


Do you realise how stupid that argument is?

"I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!"

I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years.

Also I think most attribute remaps save between 1-6 weeks in training a year depending on your skill queue, right? In that situation 7 days is worth saving but in this it isn't? Bittervets huh?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-09-24 19:48:59 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:

You really don't get it do you.
If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime.
The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.

No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.

There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.

New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.

When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day).
Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.

Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?


I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand.

How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!".

But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic).

You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted.

So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP.

Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise.

So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2015-09-24 19:49:57 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP

350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days


Do you realise how stupid that argument is?

"I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!"

I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years.
Once you've played for 5 months, it's well within the realm of how much you may have missed/earned extra.

It's a rounding error, even for you.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-09-24 19:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:

You really don't get it do you.
If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime.
The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.

No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.

There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.

New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.

When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day).
Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.

Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?


I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand.

How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!".

But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic).

You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted.

So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP.

Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise.

So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D



I understand your argument. You're saying that if I optimised over the 5 months I would have saved over the 5 months more than 350k.

But my point is that if I had optimised as well as started after this SP change, then 5 months down the line I would be 350k (5%) better off in terms of SP. I don't understand why that's hard to comprehend.

And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-09-24 20:08:20 UTC
OP is probably the type of person who got mad at Valve for making Team Fortress 2 free to play 2 years after he bought an orange box or something like that.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2015-09-24 20:10:13 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?

What principle?
No skill is being removed. There is nothing to reimburse.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#54 - 2015-09-24 20:13:45 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:

Didn't mean to imply I personally am a vet. I'm clearly not.

I could happily adapt to a 24 hour skill queue. Again, if you can't be bothered to log in within 24 hours of your current skill finishing, then that is your fault. Having a skill removed that you have already trained isn't your fault. Spot the difference?

So did you think that CCP should have given you the SP back for the skills they removed?


What I'm saying is that the system changed to a point where making a mistake has become almost impossible. Before the skillqueue, you had to check whether you had a long or short skill training before you logged of. There was also no SP reimbursement when I started, because the old system didn't allow it.

... and yes I was happy about all the SP I could directly apply to my character.

What gets a bit tiring is that some people can't enjoy the game as it is ... there seems always to be a reason to whine or complain. When it is really warranted to complain, do complain. But the topic you're raising is so small, irrelevant ...

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-09-24 20:19:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?

What principle?
No skill is being removed. There is nothing to reimburse.


So a skill that no longer has to be trained is not the same as removing that level of the skill from the game?

I never realised one of the requirements for posting on the EVE forums was a lobotomy.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Paranoid Loyd
#56 - 2015-09-24 20:30:50 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
How about either Trash Pandas (Racoons) or Cat Snakes (Ferrets)? Would either of those be acceptable?
Ooh ferrets sound intriguing.
One ferret as ordered.


It is settled then. From this moment on, the response to all things SP shall be.. The mischievous Ferret!

So say we all!

Ferrets it is.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#57 - 2015-09-24 20:40:08 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

Ferrets it is.


I see your Ferret.. and raise you another Ferret!

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Paranoid Loyd
#58 - 2015-09-24 20:45:06 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

Ferrets it is.


I see your Ferret.. and raise you another Ferret!

Bath time!

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2015-09-24 20:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Johnny Riko wrote:
So a skill that no longer has to be trained is not the same as removing that level of the skill from the game?
The skill is still not removed. It's still available for you to train, if you so choose (or not train, if you choose that instead). At most, you might see it as a change in prerequisites, which is a change in prerequisites, not a removal.

So no. A skill remaining in the game is not the same thing as removing the skill from the game, and as such, there is nothing to reimburse.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#60 - 2015-09-24 20:54:28 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP

350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days


Do you realise how stupid that argument is?

"I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!"

I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years.

Also I think most attribute remaps save between 1-6 weeks in training a year depending on your skill queue, right? In that situation 7 days is worth saving but in this it isn't? Bittervets huh?

Do you realize I didn't post any argument? Roll