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Breaking war-dec's. Questions and a small rant :)

First post
Author
Roney Strongarm
Caldari Security
#1 - 2015-09-22 00:11:13 UTC
It's well known that within the eve community null sec players have always been hating on empire dwellers. Let's see some of the things that have been nerfed from the game because nullsec players wanted even more of an advantage over people running in empire than they already had:

1) Drone poop was axed
2) High end minerals were taken away from empire based miners
3) Mission rats got much much harder
4) Missions in general got more complex and time consuming
5) Dreadnaughts were taken away from empire
6) All forms of faction loot drops were axed from missions
7) We were given incursions but running them in null sec are 2x more profitable
8) The inability to insure T2, T3 and faction ships hurts empire players a LOT when they can't simply build them
9) L5 agents found in low sec ONLY
10) Changes to war decs means that even if a corp leaves an alliance under the war dec, the dec follows them.

And now more nerfs to people living in empire are on the table:

1) Nerfs to how logistics works, great for PVP, horribly bad for PVE
2) Drifters now existing in empire which may or may not start hunting down PVE players
3) Further nerfs to battleships (instead of buffing), hurting L4 and incursion runners
4) Nerfs to T3 and mission running ships

So let me now ask a couple of questions. How many more times is CCP going to allow the PVP community call for nerfs to empire? Seriously I'm sick of the hate. And so is everyone else. I can't tell you how many ppl I've seen quit this game over the BS that goes on in empire. Gankers are allowed to gank, scammers are allowed to scam. Merc corps are allowed to continually war dec the same CEO over and over. People exist in empire purely to make life hell for people who just want to run missions and enjoy the PVE content of this game.

I understand the sandbox element to this game. but do you really not understand how expensive it really is to live in empire? I've been scammed for 2 billion isk, and you know what? I accepted that. My bad. But this is what I'm getting at. Further and further nerfs to the enjoyment of empire is going to ruin this game for everyone. Does CCP really just want the PVP/null sec community ruling this game? Do you really just want the gankers and the overall A-Holes calling the shots here? Because that's what seems to be happening. Every time you nerf things for empire dwellers you aren't making things any better for anyone. You aren't making people think "oh, hey, maybe I SHOULD move down to null". No, what you are getting more and more of is, f*ck this game. I quit. And a lot of you would think, so be it you whiner. But this is happening not just in a handful of people who can't handle it. We are talking about numbers of upwards into the thousands here. How many accounts have been made for people trying out the game? Hundreds of thousands? Possibly even millions? And how many people are actually active at any given time. 15 - 40 thousand? That's a big difference in numbers.

And maybe it's because of the war dec system. There's no protection for people in empire, wanting to grow, wanting to build. None. Zero. ZIP. Running a corp/alliance in empire these days is becoming a near impossibility. Between the suicide gankers and the pirates, ninja looters and every other form of ganking and piracy you can think of, we now have dozens of mercorps and other types of corps that do nothing but specifically target people who run missions and want to enjoy the PVE content in this community.

So for question number 2. If my corp comes under wardec, the going thing has been to disban. What else can we do? These gank style corps that wardec empire dwellers want nothing else other than to melt a persons corp. How many times am I allowed to disban my corp and remake it to drop wardecs? Because really there is no other choice. What is legal, and what is not? What protection do I have here? If I am just getting a corp off the ground I don't have the billions and/or trillions of ISK that these null sec guys seem to think we have. We are under massive amounts of fire. What is CCP doing to ensure the fun factor for people who just want to mine? Or run missions? After all the nerfs to empire dwellers, what is being done to nerf the sheer amount of piracy in this game?

Now let me offer one suggestion. Any corp or alliance that comes under merc wardec, may hire NPC merc corps to fight them off. Let's look at the drifters. Wouldn't it be nice for people who actually do run missions to be able to run missions for the jovians? With a high enough standings towards jovians, and a clean wardec history of never being the aggressor, the jovians should be extremely active in protecting their allied friends. The friends who help them eliminate their enemy. Use the powerful god weapons the NPC are mounted with in this game. Make them warp in fleets of protectors to defend the corp that has been assisting them in eliminating their foes.

Now I get that this suggestion is going to come under a lot of hate. And frankly, I just don't care. You PVP guys love picking on the PVE guys because well, it's easy kills for you. It's what makes the game fun for you. But it RUINS the game for us. And your attitude is "if you don't like it, then quit the game". Well ladies and gentlemen, right back at you. If the inability to pick on carebears ruins the game for you, then suck it up and move on. Why don't you guys fight eachother, PVP on PVP. You know the old expression, go pick on someone your own size.

Carebears need protection. CCP has done nothing but nerf the game for mission runners.. NOTHING BUT NERF. So where is our buff? What are you doing to ensure the enjoyment of the game for your carebears? Also, please pay close attention to question 2. I want that answered. What are the bannable offences. What can I do?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-09-22 00:23:23 UTC
Wow, long but I read.? Mostly...

To sum, what you express is common talk. The only one I actually agree is L5 in lowsec only. This is because L5 need ships not suited to lowsec so not worth doing. They could improve the pve experience in highsec without imbalancing the gameplay.

Most of the rest, isnt so imbalanced. I have spent many years as a carebear and well enjoyed it. I also taught how to counter wardec and gank. Just need a different view. You have the tools to effectively protect yourself. I am not saying mechanics are fine, but carebears can counter without breaking their gameplay. That part is part of playing Eve. I have taught many pvers anti pvp planning and counters.

To quote the place I used to laser tag

"Play hard, play smart, and play to survive"

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#3 - 2015-09-22 00:29:40 UTC
nothing stops you from going to low or null sec except for yourself
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-09-22 00:31:48 UTC
EVE is a PVP game; deal with it.

BTW, a lot of the things you listed actually hurt nullsec and PVP even more than carebears. The drone mineral nerf threw a massive wrench in whole nullsec regions' industry and income processes; it also more or less doubled the price of t1 ships and was actually a buff to highsec miners. PVE rats and sites getting harder also went to nullsec anoms. As far as capitals go, I don't think you realize how rough it would be if "merc" corps could field dreads in highsec.

Your other points are largely wrong. T2 and T3 insurance have actually gotten better. Level 5 agents have been lowsec only since I started my first account in 2009; I have no idea if it was different before but it's been like that for over 6 years at least. Wardecs have gotten more expensive and dangerous for attackers - Ally and Crimewatch mechanics, for example. Gankers have had several nerfs - insurance no longer pays out for suicide ganks, CONCORD response times have been significantly shortened and security status hits have gotten considerably larger.

The rest of it your argument goes against one of the core principles of the game: Risk vs. Reward. Pretty much everything you said can be summed up as "I want all the rewards but no risks!" If that's genuinely the way you feel and this isn't a troll, then you should find another game.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#5 - 2015-09-22 00:32:01 UTC
Globby wrote:
nothing stops you from going to low or null sec except for yourself



Except for that pesky need to have 100mil SP before you can leave Highsec according to many highsec corps, oh. and don't forget that you insta-die as soon as you jump into lowsec because of all the evil gate camps on every gate.


Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Roney Strongarm
Caldari Security
#6 - 2015-09-22 00:33:11 UTC
Globby wrote:
nothing stops you from going to low or null sec except for yourself


Look I don't think you understand. I've LIVED in null. And rankly, I didn't like it. Too much conflict between FC's. Too many people thinking their idea is the best. Too difficult to run loots back up to empire.

What I'm really looking for is an answer to my main question. When it comes to wardecs, what can I, and what CAN'T I do? What will get me banned and what will not?
Paranoid Loyd
#7 - 2015-09-22 00:37:57 UTC
Roney Strongarm wrote:
What I'm really looking for is an answer to my main question. When it comes to wardecs, what can I, and what CAN'T I do? What will get me banned and what will not?
Then why didn't you just ask this instead of putting up a bunch of garbage that is probably going to make you a target?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Roney Strongarm
Caldari Security
#8 - 2015-09-22 00:41:00 UTC
Yockerbow wrote:
EVE is a PVP game; deal with it.

BTW, a lot of the things you listed actually hurt nullsec and PVP even more than carebears. The drone mineral nerf threw a massive wrench in whole nullsec regions' industry and income processes; it also more or less doubled the price of t1 ships and was actually a buff to highsec miners. PVE rats and sites getting harder also went to nullsec anoms. As far as capitals go, I don't think you realize how rough it would be if "merc" corps could field dreads in highsec.

Your other points are largely wrong. T2 and T3 insurance have actually gotten better. Level 5 agents have been lowsec only since I started my first account in 2009; I have no idea if it was different before but it's been like that for over 6 years at least. Wardecs have gotten more expensive and dangerous for attackers - Ally and Crimewatch mechanics, for example. Gankers have had several nerfs - insurance no longer pays out for suicide ganks, CONCORD response times have been significantly shortened and security status hits have gotten considerably larger.

The rest of it your argument goes against one of the core principles of the game: Risk vs. Reward. Pretty much everything you said can be summed up as "I want all the rewards but no risks!" If that's genuinely the way you feel and this isn't a troll, then you should find another game.


OK, an let me counter this argument. You have rats that are worth 5 - 10 mil bounty that can drop 500 mil items. You have ores that can only be found in nullsec. You have anomalies that spawn higher frequencies of high end DED complexes. You have production infrastructure, meaning you don't really ever have to BUY your ships like we do. You said T1 ships have gotten more expensive. So have T2 and pirate hulls. Except we have to BUY those ships, only to have them lost in a war dec. People try making mining corps. those corps get ganked.

I'm serious about being a problem. You say null isn't so bad and that empire has it easy. Why don't you try living in empire and making an empire based corp? And then you tell me how easy it is to have to pay outright for every ship, every module, every frikkin thing it is you do, when profit from running missions is only 100 - 150 mil a day
Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2015-09-22 00:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
You continue to try to draw in black and white, when the reality is it's all shades of grey. There is no "Empire" vs "Null" there is not "PVE" guys picking on "PVP" guys. It's all PVP, even when you PVE. You can try all you want to avoid ship combat, but again the reality is that is PVP.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Roney Strongarm
Caldari Security
#10 - 2015-09-22 00:50:03 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Then why didn't you just ask this instead of putting up a bunch of garbage that is probably going to make you a target?


Right and you just proved my point. People use the forums to target people in empire. Its just another system that is abused by the PVP'ers in this game to make life hard for PVE players. Target me or not but my corp is getting disbanned anyway, and why? Because of constant war decs. And why did I get decced? For simply existing. Trying to recruit missions runners. That makes me more of a target than the forums ever will.

And if my question isn't being answered, then shortly here I'm going to link you a post I'm about to make in the suggestions forum.

I get this is coming under a lot of fire, and everyone here defending your side of the game are PVP'ers. And yes, I realize it's because the PVP community is calling the shots for both the PVP community and for the game itself. Everyone in NULL and PVP want the devs to make changes so that it's easier for THEM to have their way in this game. Essentially f****ing it over for PVE people.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#11 - 2015-09-22 00:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
I'm primarily a pvper and I live in nullsec.

I don't hate anyone and have nothing against pve players at all.

I don't understand this thread or where all the hate in the OP comes from.

Risk versus reward is about the only thing from the OP I found myself thinking, but that has nothing to do with being a pvper or a PvEer, it's simply what I personally think about balance in the game.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-09-22 01:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
I dont get why people think it takes so much sp to pvp. Purpose is not to kill but deny kills. Get that and plan for that, no empire based corp/alliance can be beat. Just need to understand that eve is still a pvp environment so need to plan the pve around that. Is low sp to train and play that way. On mobile which is why no details.

Edit: Note my sig. As well, no more jump clone requirements or clone grades. Makes it easier.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2015-09-22 01:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oh my…
Roney Strongarm wrote:
1) Drone poop was axed
2) High end minerals were taken away from empire based miners

Ehm. You got this one backwards. Drone poop — a massive null-based mineral source — was axed. This meant that minerals now had far more sane distribution and made mining in empire a lot more lucrative, and it actually made nullsec industry a lot harder than it was before.

Quote:
3) Mission rats got much much harder
4) Missions in general got more complex and time consuming
These are patently untrue. Mission rats are still trivial since, if anything, they're more predictable and more easily manipulated.
Mission in general have been made a lot easier to complete or skip, often removing mass triggers that required you to very carefully pick your targets.

Quote:
5) Dreadnaughts were taken away from empire[
6) All forms of faction loot drops were axed from missions
7) We were given incursions but running them in null sec are 2x more profitable
8) The inability to insure T2, T3 and faction ships hurts empire players a LOT when they can't simply build them

• Dreadnaughts are still allowed in empire space.
• Missions giving mission loot is only sensible — it means they aren't in conflict with the kind of competitive content where better loot is the reward for winning the competition.
• Rewards being scaled with the security level of space is not unique to incursion, and is a very sensible mechanism.
• Insurance acts the same everywhere and does not hurt empire players any more or less than it hurts anyone else. Also, there is nothing special about those ships that preclude empire players from building them.

Quote:
9) L5 agents found in low sec ONLY
10) Changes to war decs means that even if a corp leaves an alliance under the war dec, the dec follows them.

• L5s being available in lowsec was always the intent and fits with the overarching theme of scaling the rewards with the security level of the space it's in.
• Wars follow you. So what? It's there to balance out the increased costs and added countermeasures that the wardeccer has to deal with.

Quote:
1) Nerfs to how logistics works, great for PVP, horribly bad for PVE
2) Drifters now existing in empire which may or may not start hunting down PVE players
3) Further nerfs to battleships (instead of buffing), hurting L4 and incursion runners
4) Nerfs to T3 and mission running ships
It's called balance. It “hurts” everyone, and by that I mean it benefits everyone because it creates a better game. Drifters also affect everyone, by the way.

Oh, and living in empire space, and especially in highsec, is practically free.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#14 - 2015-09-22 01:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Roney Strongarm wrote:
2) Drifters now existing in empire which may or may not start hunting down PVE players

Once that content comes back, how are the drifters going to know who is a PvEer in order to hunt them and not hunt PvPers?

Roney Strongarm wrote:
5) We were given incursions but running them in null sec are 2x more profitable

In practical terms, where are the largest and most profitable incursion communities located?

I've seen 1 nullsec incursion in the region of null I live in, in the last year. Running incursions in null is more an occasional opportunity than a consistent income or career.

No matter though. Good luck to highsec incursion runners.

Roney Strongarm wrote:
7) Dreadnaughts were taken away from empire

Since when?

I used one in Empire space last week.

Roney Strongarm wrote:
9) L5 agents found in low sec ONLY

Isn't lowsec part of Empire space?

So level 5s are only found in Empire space and not at all in nullsec. What's the problem with this?


Wish I wasn't on my phone right now, since I have a number of similar questions.
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-09-22 01:25:59 UTC
Roney Strongarm wrote:
OK, an let me counter this argument. You have rats that are worth 5 - 10 mil bounty that can drop 500 mil items. You have ores that can only be found in nullsec. You have anomalies that spawn higher frequencies of high end DED complexes. You have production infrastructure, meaning you don't really ever have to BUY your ships like we do. You said T1 ships have gotten more expensive. So have T2 and pirate hulls. Except we have to BUY those ships, only to have them lost in a war dec. People try making mining corps. those corps get ganked.

I'm serious about being a problem. You say null isn't so bad and that empire has it easy. Why don't you try living in empire and making an empire based corp? And then you tell me how easy it is to have to pay outright for every ship, every module, every frikkin thing it is you do, when profit from running missions is only 100 - 150 mil a day


I don't know where you're seeing 5-10m bounty rats; in anomalies they max out at about 1.8m unless you get a faction spawn, which is fairly rare.

Nullsec production infrastructure isn't nearly as strong as you think right now. Most of the stuff they use is imported from highsec, including T2 modules and ships. Due to the distribution of moongoo, it's impossible to source everything you need locally. At best you can make T1 hulls and rigs without importing materials.

Pirate hulls have largely dropped in price, and their price isn't really tied to minerals that strongly.

So, to sum up: In nullsec you have to buy your hulls and mods the same as anywhere else, and every bit of increased income comes with highly increased risk. Yeah, your level 4 missions pay less than anomaly ratting (not as much less as you think, though) but you don't need to worry about a Stratios decloaking and killing you if you don't watch local like a hawk. The risk is a lot higher.

As for wardecs, they happen. If you want to be even safer, you can NPC corp up - you get 11% tax taken out of your bounties/payouts and in return you're wardec-immune. Risk and reward, that's how it works.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#16 - 2015-09-22 01:34:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Oh my…

I don't think I even need to read your points, because the whole "Oh my..." sums it up so well.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-09-22 01:40:22 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Oh my…

I don't think I even need to read your points, because the whole "Oh my..." sums it up so well.


Shame. Tippia often has good counterpoints. The Oh my was simply due to there being so much to the post.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#18 - 2015-09-22 01:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Roney Strongarm wrote:
And maybe it's because of the war dec system. There's no protection for people in empire, wanting to grow, wanting to build. None. Zero. ZIP. Running a corp/alliance in empire these days is becoming a near impossibility. Between the suicide gankers and the pirates, ninja looters and every other form of ganking and piracy you can think of, we now have dozens of mercorps and other types of corps that do nothing but specifically target people who run missions and want to enjoy the PVE content in this community.

So for question number 2. If my corp comes under wardec, the going thing has been to disban. What else can we do? These gank style corps that wardec empire dwellers want nothing else other than to melt a persons corp. How many times am I allowed to disban my corp and remake it to drop wardecs? Because really there is no other choice. What is legal, and what is not? What protection do I have here? If I am just getting a corp off the ground I don't have the billions and/or trillions of ISK that these null sec guys seem to think we have. We are under massive amounts of fire. What is CCP doing to ensure the fun factor for people who just want to mine? Or run missions? After all the nerfs to empire dwellers, what is being done to nerf the sheer amount of piracy in this game?
Your own protection is your responsibility, you're given the exact same tools as the people who prey on you, try using them. Ganking and wardecs are trivial to avoid or negate.

Quote:
Now I get that this suggestion is going to come under a lot of hate. And frankly, I just don't care. You PVP guys love picking on the PVE guys because well, it's easy kills for you. It's what makes the game fun for you. But it RUINS the game for us. And your attitude is "if you don't like it, then quit the game". Well ladies and gentlemen, right back at you. If the inability to pick on carebears ruins the game for you, then suck it up and move on. Why don't you guys fight eachother, PVP on PVP. You know the old expression, go pick on someone your own size.
PvE is not exempt from PvP, that is the nature of the game; deal with it or move on. The excuse "I just PvE, I don't affect others and want to be left in peace" cuts no ice in a game where PvE is designed to put you into conflict with others.

Quote:
Carebears need protection.
Good news, carebears have all the protection they need if only they'd avail themselves of the tools at their disposal.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#19 - 2015-09-22 02:00:41 UTC
Not sure if you are just trying to **** people off or if you really have a problem with how EvE works.

When I started you had 3 groups of people noobs , carebears, knights and pirates (kill board whores for the most part). First you were a noob then graduated to carebear then you got fed up with the griefing and constant insults and decided to shoot back - that magical moment you became a good guy PVPer. Later you get fed up with carebears whining and blaming everyone and you shot them because you could - you are a pirate ( after that I guess comes bittervet - leaving - coming back starting at any point in the cycle).

Lifecycle of eve we called it.

So my advice to you - graduate to the next step - it is fun :).

That is what you pay for after all 'fun', or do you spend you RL money to have a second job in EvE?
Anyway I think the whole PVP or PVE debate is useless, PVE content will always become stale very quickly. Whatever CCP brings into this game, a week later there will be guides and min/max setups and then it becomes boring again.
The only thing that will keep you interested is something ever changing ever evolving - in my case is it the limitless challenge to go up against other players - elaborate traps and how to counter them - the hunt if you will .

Anyway as always some will find their way , most won't. If you decide to hang around you should not only play the boring 10 % of a game and maybe look for something fun to do in the other 90%.

Also never come to the forums to get pitty or help - EvE players role play ******** aggressive egomaniacs for the most part, which creates the universe we all came to love, but makes them very bad counselors.


Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#20 - 2015-09-22 02:17:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:

6) All forms of faction loot drops were axed from missions
7) We were given incursions but running them in null sec are 2x more profitable

• Missions giving mission loot is only sensible — it means they aren't in conflict with the kind of competitive content where better loot is the reward for winning the competition.
• Rewards being scaled with the security level of space is not unique to incursion, and is a very sensible mechanism.

enter burner missions.... holy faction loot batman (oh yea, in highsec)! and I'm pretty sure there are some missions that still drop faction loot.

also nullsec incursions involve sitting in an area with a large group and that can be attacked by neutrals. Also these usually don't involve the min/maxed setups that work in highsec. Income is hard to compare directly.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

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