EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

And you've missed that Waffles has never been associated with PL in the way that Hydra's heads are.

Waffles use the same website and services so there's an *opportunity* for it to happen, but PL has clearly never used that opportunity which is evident simply by looking at the results in all of the tournaments ever. I think even you will agree that it's obvious that PL provides no actual support other than cheering those loveable little guys on during their matches.

Whenever CCP decides that because there is a link, even if it's not exploited, and Waffles can't participate then we just live with it as it's understandable that the public can be deceived into that kind of thing is happening when Hydra is clearly doing what it does even if we're not.

It's a shame though for Waffles isn't it? Man, they're loveable.

Warlords and Camel are practice partners that share logistics, resources, theorycrafting, setups, prizes and a common ethos. None of this is up for debate and none of this is illegal in this year's AT.

What PL, Waffles and Horde do with respect to the above isn't relevant. Because it wouldn't be illegal for them just the same as it isn't illegal for Warlords and Camel. Plus they aren't the ones being investigated.

So I personally think we can put all that **** to bed.

The issues to debate are:

1) Did Warlords and Camel throw matches / have house rules? Because if they did then they are in breach of the rules.

2) Are the current rules and AT structure fit for purpose?

Since the answer to #1 is unknown and unknowable for any of us not directly involved, there isn't really much to debate. The evidence made public so far is pretty pathetic and lacks any kind of corroboration, so unless CCP can find some hard evidence or are willing to make a brutal judgement without such evidence, it really doesn't matter.

I found it interesting that CCP made a public announcement of their investigation, before anything beyond hearsay had been put forward publicly as evidence. It looked to me like they were going on a fishing expedition in the hope that someone would come forward to corroborate DHB's claims, because otherwise the idea of publicly announcing an investigation that had every chance of failing and turning in to another embarrassing PR disaster for CCP was pretty foolish. But maybe they were handed the smoking gun by someone, since they haven't said anything we cannot tell, except the fact they haven't said anything is pretty telling. Why sit on the smoking gun when this whole debacle can be put to bed?

So I, like you, am waiting for CCP's response on this issue. I know what my friends and alliance mates have said and I know where my loyalties and trust lies, so my feeling is that CCP will come back empty. Of course I may be wrong, but even still it'll be another fun tale to add to the EVE history books.

I think #2 is a subject that is fit for debate at this time. Because it doesn't matter what the result of CCP's current investigation is, the rules and AT structure need improvement.

The fact that they need to investigate allegations like this at all is a problem. The AT should be set up so these things are cut and dried and the results of matches can stand without question. Because while that isn't the case, we are going to see this kind of drama explosion on a regular basis, since why not cook up some chat logs and submit them to CCP whenever the AT result isn't to your liking? You know what they'll do, since they've set a precedent and you know they'll take time carrying out their investigation, so why not **** up the forums, troll the AT winners and inconvenience them with bogus confiscations whenever you can?

Running the AT this way is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Sure, that disaster is impacting my friends at this point in time, but it'll also impact any other AT winner that has bitter and unscrupulous enemies going forward (and that's every AT winner).

Absolutely.


Every part of DHB's behavior with respect to this case has been foolish in my eyes and betraying his team mates, regardless of the truth or otherwise of the allegations, is just plain bad.

As to why:

The most obvious reason is he was upset and just exploded all over the forums.

Given the nature and content of his post, that looks pretty accurate. Since he had already decided to leave the team and clearly wasn't willing to take steps to defuse the bad blood between him and his ex-team mates, he wasn't putting anything on the line by throwing a handful of uncorroborated allegations and salty comments around.

Unfortunately Kadesh decided to turn it in to a lover's quarrel and escalate the whole thing with personal attacks in the opposite direction. This was even more foolish than DHB's behaviour in my opinion.

Once Kadesh started slinging **** back at DHB, it turned into a freakshow and DHB took the obvious next step by submitting a ticket to CCP, causing what would have been just a minor altercation between two idiots to turn in to an official case requiring an investigation. It was at this point that DHB put something on the line, not before, because at this point he was risking his own AT rewards.

Obviously if DHB's allegations were false, he had total control over that risk, because he would have known there was no case to answer for and it would just be an escalation shitstorm that would eventually blow itself out. If DHB's allegations were true then, and only then, was he actually risking anything he hadn't already sacrificed.

So either DHB just thew a drama hand-grenade and walked away. Knowing nothing would really come of it.

Or he was forced by his emotions and e-honor to bring down his own team for an offense that was either real or perceived.

Either option is entirely plausible and consistent. Both are things we've seen many times before.


I assumed this would be the cause because of my long experience with HYDRA. It may not make sense from the outside, but from the inside a massive self-inflicted drama bomb apocalypse was always very likely.

Sane minds do not often prevail in HYDRA. But tbh, that's one of the reasons why I've enjoyed my time in HYDRA so much.


I think that line of reasoning assumes that DHB carefully planned this out, wasn't just raging hard on the forums and didn't just escalate after being raged back at.

Looking at his posts, I don't see any sign of careful planning, wisdom, caution or even the effort to make coherent arguments. I think he was just throwing his toys out of the pram.

I think stupidity is a far more compelling cause to this drama than conspiracy.

Really, nobody in HYDRA, Warlords or Camel wants to **** on CCP. That is just an opinion you and others have formed. It's just not true.


I very much hope not, but I don't see why this has to be the case.

It would seem like a pretty stupid way of progressing from this point to repeat the same mistakes that CCP have made countless times in the past. It's pointless for a small company like CCP with finite resources, finite skills and finite knowledge to attempt to out smart the rest of the playerbase. It's never worked before and it'll never work in the future.

Just formulate tournament rules and a tournament structure that aims for the achievable. Make it so nobody achieves a benefit in the AT from throwing a match in the AT. Sure, they can win big on EVE-bet or something but that hardly matters.

It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. There is no incentive to throw matches, there is no reason for destructive collusion and there is no need for CCP to investigate such allegations to the detriment of everyone. The sandbox metagaming that EVE is famous for can carry on without any unnecessary impact on the tournament.

The idea of handing the AT over to the lawyers is just plain silly. I very much hope CCP doesn't go that way.

This is a second post because you seem like a nice enough dude and I don't want people to think you're on your own with your epic defence arguments that span several posts. Trust me, I'm good at distraction.

My point is that it doesn't matter. If there is no massive advantage to be gained from doing it, we will not do it. Chances are nobody else will do it either. Remove the incentive to do things that are bad for the AT and people will probably stop doing things that are bad for the AT. Continue to directly encourage destructive behavior by giving an incentive to throw matches for your own teams benefit and this **** will continue.

Indeed. There would have been no sense in him doing so. Hence my point.


Blame Lance for using the drugs, sure.

But don't bury your head in the sand and say that drugs don't exist and the advantages they offer don't exist.

Unfortunately for RL sports they don't occur in a controlled environment where these things can be trivially eliminated.

No, I'm saying that there are simple ways to make the tournament better, regardless of who competes. You don't have to leave massive holes in the AT structure and ruleset that invite bad people to drive busses through them.

It really doesn't matter if HYDRA is guilty of what you claim or not, the rules still need to be improved.

Just asking everyone to behave in an honorable way and not cause any drama or trouble isn't going to work. The idea that it would is just plain stupid.

Make the rules reflect the AT you want to see, not the the AT you want to avoid.

No offence, but you've also said that you Accept PL, Waffles and Horde are not actually colluding in any shape or form here in this thread, but on your alt in the DHB thread you did make that claim and compared what PL does to what Hydra does.

It's not CCPs job to chase after one alliance spread across several parts because they consistently ruin the tournament. How about Hydra just mans up for once and takes a little responsibility for its actions rather than making "Alliance Tournament" the gig at CCP no-one wants to be saddled with.


edit: I forgot, much like your alliance, what you say comes in several packages.


No arguments there, PL and others have said this for quite a while now.

Which is why it's daft to have the rules set up so that it becomes their job by default.

That's why I say having rules that simply work and don't require a huge amount of effort to police will benefit CCP, benefit the AT and prevent all this totally unwarranted drama from exploding every time someone doesn't like the AT result.


What I say on Joe when it's all fun and games and nobody is taking anything seriously is one thing. But once a whole host of monkeys start flinging their faeces in my direction, spreading lies and propaganda and making a fairly concerted effort to have me and all my friends banned then a more serious and considered response is justified.

I'm sure you can understand the distinction.