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Create Battle Arenas
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#181 - 2015-09-21 18:56:21 UTC
Nah. While some of my programmer friends might shoot me, this is a case of "It's just Software".

If they wanted to put in the time, they could make it anyway they want. That's what Devs are supposed to do- come up with features and content that then get turned into software by coders. In this case they are working with the legacy of the original backbone of the game, but they could create 'virtual space' which is just another solar system accessed by a terminal in stations. The rest is just a setup similar to fleet window, and a screen to track various stats like wins, losses, times, etc. 99% of this is already done for the alliance tournaments. We know there is already a team devoted to E-Sports, so diverting them from content that 99.99% of the players will never experience to work on an arena that everyone could use would not be a big strain on resources.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2015-09-21 19:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyra Gerie
"they could make it anyway they want"

No they can't, they have a narrative, they have a customer base, they have a system they need to consider before changing something of it. They can't just change it without seriously considering how it affects the rest of the game.

Not to mention half the tools they do have for the AT work just for the AT. Their tools are actually rather low key and could use improvement as is. Not only that they use a separate server for this which aside from this one instance wouldn't apply well for battle arenas.

As for a team dedicated to E-sports, would you mind giving a source on that? They might have a team that handles the AT but that is far far different than a dedicated E-sports dev team.
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2015-09-21 19:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenji Noguchi
Lyra Gerie wrote:
"they could make it anyway they want"

No they can't, they have a narrative, they have a customer base, they have a system they need to consider before changing something of it. They can't just change it without seriously considering how it affects the rest of the game.


Then , without studying all that yourself, how you conclude that your idea is the only way to implement it?

Because it's not.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2015-09-21 19:15:44 UTC
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
"they could make it anyway they want"

No they can't, they have a narrative, they have a customer base, they have a system they need to consider before changing something of it. They can't just change it without seriously considering how it affects the rest of the game.


Then , without studying all that yourself, how you conclude that your idea is the only way to implement it?

Because it's not.


Studying? You mean playing the game over a long period? My idea follows the narrative of eve that you are never safe and you have something to fight over. It works decent with the customer base because while it allows battle arenas that players don't really want, there are those who do want it and it gives them decent battle arena like location. As for the system they don't have to change a whole lot, generated dead space pockets likely with localized effects would be adding something new, but hopefully something that wouldn't be too much extra work to implement.

As opposed to some people saying we could have worry free fight areas with stats and ****.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#185 - 2015-09-21 19:27:22 UTC
I guess you are one of the folks afraid meat won't jump under your guns if it has someplace else to be.


Narrative? Eve is supposed to be a living universe. You don't think there is a place in that universe for sports, much less Bloodsports?

Players? You mean the ones that request this feature on a regular basis? Or maybe just the big alliances that field tournement teams every year? How about the likes of people that watch those tournaments, or the new players that always come in after watching them? Those playerbases? Because there's a lot more players and playstyles than just you and yours, and many of them have asked for and would enjoy a feature like this.

System? The only system they would need to consider is the new one they make for this. It would not impact much, if anything, outside the arena itself. It would be a news blurb, maybe a display in the captain's quarters listing top teams and players.

What is it you think an arena would change outside the arena? As I said earlier, if the arena becomes so popular that it pulls significant participation from the rest of the game because everyone is in simulation, then we need to look at why the rest of the game is so lackluster that a simple matchmaker so completely blows it away.

And in the end, if it's that much more fun....great. it's a game, it's supposed to be fun.
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#186 - 2015-09-21 19:36:27 UTC
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Lyra Gerie wrote:
"they could make it anyway they want"

No they can't, they have a narrative, they have a customer base, they have a system they need to consider before changing something of it. They can't just change it without seriously considering how it affects the rest of the game.


Then , without studying all that yourself, how you conclude that your idea is the only way to implement it?

Because it's not.


Studying? You mean playing the game over a long period? My idea follows the narrative of eve that you are never safe and you have something to fight over. It works decent with the customer base because while it allows battle arenas that players don't really want, there are those who do want it and it gives them decent battle arena like location. As for the system they don't have to change a whole lot, generated dead space pockets likely with localized effects would be adding something new, but hopefully something that wouldn't be too much extra work to implement.

As opposed to some people saying we could have worry free fight areas with stats and ****.


I'm not for the "VR arena" with virtual ships, but I don't think some deadspace pockets is all the devs would do if they were to implement this.

As to "the narrative", dueling fits perfectly in the grim, dark atmosphere of eve. With capsuleer technology it's only logical that dueling would bloom, as they don't give a damn about dying and have enormous resources to pay for the ships and the crews.

I don't think actually designing and coding it would be a huge drag of resources. You could implement this idea with your deadspace pockets+a "looking for duel" board+a system to bet with the opponent enforced by the game. You wouldn't even need additional coding for the stats thing as we already have killmails.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2015-09-21 20:29:00 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I guess you are one of the folks afraid meat won't jump under your guns if it has someplace else to be.


Narrative? Eve is supposed to be a living universe. You don't think there is a place in that universe for sports, much less Bloodsports?

Players? You mean the ones that request this feature on a regular basis? Or maybe just the big alliances that field tournement teams every year? How about the likes of people that watch those tournaments, or the new players that always come in after watching them? Those playerbases? Because there's a lot more players and playstyles than just you and yours, and many of them have asked for and would enjoy a feature like this.

System? The only system they would need to consider is the new one they make for this. It would not impact much, if anything, outside the arena itself. It would be a news blurb, maybe a display in the captain's quarters listing top teams and players.

What is it you think an arena would change outside the arena? As I said earlier, if the arena becomes so popular that it pulls significant participation from the rest of the game because everyone is in simulation, then we need to look at why the rest of the game is so lackluster that a simple matchmaker so completely blows it away.

And in the end, if it's that much more fun....great. it's a game, it's supposed to be fun.


Of course there would be and is bloodsport, except no one has really done it large scale yet. This is already a thing by player groups, I never said it didn't exist. Just that creating a safe place for it to occur isn't going to happen unless the players make it safe, that's how eve works.

And yes the players, like all the ones who have already said this idea wasn't good and you've fought tooth n nail to say it is good. There are more saying they dislike the idea then those saying it is a good idea, and this isn't the first time this idea has fallen off the features and ideas forum so no, it's not a popular idea despite that some players are asking for it. As for the AT that is an entirely different beast for various reasons.

As for the system, it's not a problem just make a new one? And where does that dev time come from? Citadels? AT staff? The team working on the little things? Dev time has to come from somewhere and making a whole new system just to satisfy this niche is not worth it when there are alternatives that would allow for a similar experience.

An arena pulls players out of the game into another, that is the main problem with it. If it can't be crashed by players, built by players, organized by players it doesn't have a place in this game. It's not the matchmaking that would make this an issue, it's the access to ships fittings and training in a safe environment that would be the issue.

If you want a fight, duel. If you want more of a fight then that, organize it with the other side. If you dont want to be attacked while doing all of this, too bad.

As for Kenji Noguchi Dueling already exists. As do third party groups that could hold betting isk while you complete your duel. Meanwhile as far as stats go, more stats is always better, but it's still dev time, maybe figure out what stats you want to see and throw it into the little things thread.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#188 - 2015-09-21 22:26:31 UTC
The best thing about F&I is that occaisionally someone gets a really bad idea and they hang on to it really tightly.

Stupidity tank is impenetrable folks, It's time to just agree with this guy and let this silly post fall deep into the archives to be burried in the 'goofy gimmick to get subscriptions' aisle. Clearly he'll never get his arms around what this game is really about.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#189 - 2015-09-22 07:51:32 UTC
Just join RvB.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#190 - 2015-09-22 08:51:39 UTC
Quips like 'just join RvB' have already been covered. The idea is all about casual fights on a more spur of the moment basis. Joining RvB, or dedicating you and a dozen other friends' gameplay to forming a league, etc... That's not what they are asking for at all.

As much as people go on and on, and on about how EvE is all about PvP and everything is PvP and nothing you can do is without an element of PvP.... The sheer amount of terror from a few people that this would somehow destroy PvP seems goofy. It's the essence of PvP, except with a controllable amount of loss that makes a more casual outlook more common.

The dev time for something like this would come from where it's already coming from. You don't think Fozzie, Rise, etc actually program stuff do you? Development is about ideas, spreadsheets and testing. They already have significant dev time on competitions. You can practically go pick up 90% of the development for the structure of the competition from any number of sports related sites. Supposedly they put time and effort into tools that make creating missions quick and easy, the same tools can make creating arenas easy too. The team that handles the backbone of the AT tournement could develop this parallel to the next event they have going on with only minor tweaks.

The fallacy of the arena pulling players out of game into another is that you assume those players would stay without it. No doubt some would, others would not. Those who do don't hurt EvE, they just make you more lonely. A sub is a sub, and the way you make them not just live in the arena is to make the rest of the game just as fun. Since so little of the games content is supported by the devs, that puts the burden on the players that make EvE what it is. Your fears of an arena competing with the rest of the game are really fears that people don't want to play with you, in the way you want. All the bs, all the toxicity, scams, etc... make it fun for all and you won't have a problem.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#191 - 2015-09-22 09:17:27 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Quips like 'just join RvB' have already been covered. The idea is all about casual fights on a more spur of the moment basis. Joining RvB, or dedicating you and a dozen other friends' gameplay to forming a league, etc... That's not what they are asking for at all.

As much as people go on and on, and on about how EvE is all about PvP and everything is PvP and nothing you can do is without an element of PvP.... The sheer amount of terror from a few people that this would somehow destroy PvP seems goofy. It's the essence of PvP, except with a controllable amount of loss that makes a more casual outlook more common.

The dev time for something like this would come from where it's already coming from. You don't think Fozzie, Rise, etc actually program stuff do you? Development is about ideas, spreadsheets and testing. They already have significant dev time on competitions. You can practically go pick up 90% of the development for the structure of the competition from any number of sports related sites. Supposedly they put time and effort into tools that make creating missions quick and easy, the same tools can make creating arenas easy too. The team that handles the backbone of the AT tournement could develop this parallel to the next event they have going on with only minor tweaks.

The fallacy of the arena pulling players out of game into another is that you assume those players would stay without it. No doubt some would, others would not. Those who do don't hurt EvE, they just make you more lonely. A sub is a sub, and the way you make them not just live in the arena is to make the rest of the game just as fun. Since so little of the games content is supported by the devs, that puts the burden on the players that make EvE what it is. Your fears of an arena competing with the rest of the game are really fears that people don't want to play with you, in the way you want. All the bs, all the toxicity, scams, etc... make it fun for all and you won't have a problem.



You're right. This is a great idea. There is not end to or arguing with your logic. Well done!
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2015-09-30 11:37:08 UTC
@ Any underwhelming replies,

What about just with rookie ships, then?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#193 - 2015-09-30 15:08:05 UTC
Might be too fun and detract from the real game. Roll
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#194 - 2015-09-30 16:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
How do dedicated battle arenas fit in with the spirit of what EVE is intended to be?

CCP Falcon wrote:

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Might be too fun and detract from the real game. Roll


The idea that you might be overrun, that it might be a trap, that you might have to batphone a friend at a moments notice/etc. is what makes EVE fun. A nice cushy safe way to risk-free PvP is the opposite of fun.
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2015-09-30 19:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenji Noguchi
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
How do dedicated battle arenas fit in with the spirit of what EVE is intended to be?

The idea that you might be overrun, that it might be a trap, that you might have to batphone a friend at a moments notice/etc. is what makes EVE fun. A nice cushy safe way to risk-free PvP is the opposite of fun.


Yeah. And that's why the Alliance Tournament is so unfun and nobody participates in it. Nobody ever watch the matches, too. Also, it's completely unfit to Eve and everybody hates it for that reason. Right?

The "risk-free" part is just a way to implement it. I don't like that idea. I don't know why every detractor of this idea automatically thinks we're asking for some "battleground" or similar crap out of WoW or SWTOR. If we would like risk-free, we would not be playing EVE. I like to risk my ship and my ISKs and my clone as duelists have always risked their lives, their possessions, their money, their honor, or every other thing people dueled over basically since ever (including today, with combat sports). And also for the excitement, the glory, the self-improvement, and others that would not exist in a "risk-free" environment.

I'm all against "risk-free". But I'm all for the "duelist" profession, and currently, it's simply impossible to devote to that.

By the way, even with risk-free, there would be tons of players that would participate in that. In our harsh, cruel, sandboxy real world, millions of people devote to competitive sports just for the sake of competing and all the emotions that it brings. I know people who likes some games but only ever play ranked matches. Guess why?

We're only asking for an in-game public bulletin board, some simple system of deadspace gates or reinforced bubble for the duration of the match, and a simple system of statistics ELO-style.
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2015-10-01 18:59:57 UTC
BTW, want this to be more "sandboxy" and player driven? Make it a player-built structure. Destructible, taxable, player or corporate, owned. Something like a Starbase Shield generator that you pay to enter. Make it so it allows 2 ships to enter, but only allows 1 ship and 1 capsule to exit. Make it to track which ships enter (the duelists) and who leaves in a ship again (the victor), and now you even have statistics. Voilá! Player-built dueling arenas. You can set it up, organize your own tournaments, publicize them, and compete with other similar entrepreneurs to be the host of the best arena in EvE, the best championships, have the best prizes...
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#197 - 2015-10-03 21:30:58 UTC
its nice to see more people actually thinking about this, and offering support.
Everyone else, this isnt to replace any other mechanic, current pvp or anything, its just completely additional content to the sandbox. You enter the arena or you dont. It just adds more content and i bet more excitement to the game when things are quiet or you just want to get on shoot something and log out.

I think this would keep a lot of players from leaving by having something to stop the boredom. I hope CCP considers this.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2015-10-03 21:48:11 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
Everyone else, this isnt to replace any other mechanic, current pvp or anything, its just completely additional content to the sandbox.

My dad has chickens on his land, one day a wild turkey landed in the chicken pin and began eating the chicken feed, when it saw us it flew off. The next day or so we saw the turkey in with the chickens again, once again when it saw us it flew off. This happened all summer, that same turkey now lives in the large walnut tree in his back yard and no longer flees when it sees us.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2015-10-03 22:09:01 UTC
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
How do dedicated battle arenas fit in with the spirit of what EVE is intended to be?

The idea that you might be overrun, that it might be a trap, that you might have to batphone a friend at a moments notice/etc. is what makes EVE fun. A nice cushy safe way to risk-free PvP is the opposite of fun.


Yeah. And that's why the Alliance Tournament is so unfun and nobody participates in it. Nobody ever watch the matches, too. Also, it's completely unfit to Eve and everybody hates it for that reason. Right?

The "risk-free" part is just a way to implement it. I don't like that idea. I don't know why every detractor of this idea automatically thinks we're asking for some "battleground" or similar crap out of WoW or SWTOR. If we would like risk-free, we would not be playing EVE. I like to risk my ship and my ISKs and my clone as duelists have always risked their lives, their possessions, their money, their honor, or every other thing people dueled over basically since ever (including today, with combat sports). And also for the excitement, the glory, the self-improvement, and others that would not exist in a "risk-free" environment.

I'm all against "risk-free". But I'm all for the "duelist" profession, and currently, it's simply impossible to devote to that.

By the way, even with risk-free, there would be tons of players that would participate in that. In our harsh, cruel, sandboxy real world, millions of people devote to competitive sports just for the sake of competing and all the emotions that it brings. I know people who likes some games but only ever play ranked matches. Guess why?

We're only asking for an in-game public bulletin board, some simple system of deadspace gates or reinforced bubble for the duration of the match, and a simple system of statistics ELO-style.


To compare eve to the alliance tournament is just wrong. The alliance tournament is an entirely different beast. They practice on different servers and they play on different servers and it's hosted by CCP. If the players want something THEY have to make it happen. The AT is already something CCP does with and for players not the other way around.

So while you say your all against risk free you're really not. Risk free aside from the duelists is what your trying to say.
But someone else could attack you right? Well of course, even those doing 100% peaceful activities run the risk of losing their ships/work why should you be any exception to this rule?

Literally everything your asking for is already provided by the game or players. You want a duel, use the dueling system already in place. You want to do it in a quiet space where you can't be interrupted? Hell camp a system and only allow competitors in or get a WH and only let competitors know of the entrances. You want fittings for people to be able to use? Set up a POS with disposable fits just for these duels. You want a public channel, make one and advertise it. Set up your own ranking system and run it as a corporation. Statistics, just check kill mails and make a spread sheet like literally everyone else who gets into something that requires one in this game.

Eve is an MMO, not an arena. If you want an arena you have all the room in the sandbox to build one and maintain it along with all the stats and tools you could want. Team up with eve bet or someone see if you can't get funding or help with this idea. If all the tools weren't already around I might agree with you but Eve provides all the tools you need for this idea, you just need to put in the effort to make it happen but you would much rather Eve devs spend their time creating a special safe place to duel in where only the duelists are the ones who can create content. Sorry, unless that duel can theoretically be crashed by players who want to ruin your day, it doesn't belong in Eve.
Rusell
HSM Regulators
#200 - 2015-10-03 23:22:08 UTC
You should try World of Warcraft seriously, In my opinion I dont want anything from that game in EvE.