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Holder Petition Regarding Myartydom of Jamyl Saurm I
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#21 - 2015-09-14 14:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Goldfinch wrote:

Arrendis wrote:
A Martyr dies for their faith. Is there evidence that the Empress was assassinated because she believed in God?


Ms. Culome.. Arrendis, we can answer this question very simply. The Empress died in the active service of God, with faith in God, and while raillying the Amarr Faithful. Her final words, which we have quoted below, are a clear statement of her purpose for being in Safizon.

Jamyl Sarum I wrote:
Faithful of Amarr, it pleases us to see so many loyal capsuleers present here today. We are gathered here in token of our holy mission to reclaim creation and bring the glory of God to all. To reaffirm this mission, it is fitting we mark the launch of our latest Imperial Flagship, the Auctoritas. You will bear witness to the might and peerless technology of Holy Amarr as we




Does that satisfy your inquiry?



No. Again, what she was doing is irrelevant. Why she was killed is what matters. If I kill a priest during a service because I don't like the color blue, and he said the word 'blue', he's not a martyr. Martyrdom lies in the motives of the killer.

As a counterexample: If a Wayist is walking down the street talking to a friend of his about his religious beliefs, and I blow him away because I hate Wayism? That's a martyr. He has died for his faith. His faith is what motivated the slaying, as opposed to, for example, proliferating a shielding technology that inspired thousands of Capsuleers to kill tens or hundreds of thousands of Circadian Seekers in order to harvest their Antikythera Elements.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-14 14:18:18 UTC

Dear Theology Council, it is of utmost importance what our enemy the Drifters were thinking before ascribing Martyrdom to our slain Empress.

No, Ms. Culome, we do not allow a foreign enemy to dictate the terms and decisions of Faith. It's not important at all, to this particular question, what they think because the Drifters exist only to be Reclaimed or destroyed.

We will leave the finer points of tactics and aggression to those who are more capable than we are, to soldiers like you. In such a case what the enemy is thinking is likely quite relevant, but we don't believe anyone.. so far.. has been able to glean any pertinent or useful information from a Drifter brain. We hope your question wasn't meant to be the philosophical black hole that it appears to be.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Arrendis
TK Corp
#23 - 2015-09-14 14:55:31 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:

Dear Theology Council, it is of utmost importance what our enemy the Drifters were thinking before ascribing Martyrdom to our slain Empress.


Well if you're going to ascribe a motive for the killing, then that's exactly what you're doing.

That's what a martyr is: someone who is killed because of their faith. Simply being in the middle of delivering boilerplate Theocratic PR at the moment you're killed for other reasons doesn't change that.

Which is why I asked for evidence. Because the petition amounts to claiming to know the Drifters' motivation.

Quote:

No, Ms. Culome, we do not allow a foreign enemy to dictate the terms and decisions of Faith. It's not important at all, to this particular question, what they think because the Drifters exist only to be Reclaimed or destroyed.


So it's not important to know why the Drifters did what they did, in order to declare why they did what they did.

Quote:

We hope your question wasn't meant to be the philosophical black hole that it appears to be.


Let's review that question, shall we?

Quote:

Is there evidence that the Empress was assassinated because she believed in God?


So now 'is there any evidence that...' is a philosophical black hole? Lady Rkard, you're better than that.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-09-14 16:36:43 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Goldfinch wrote:

Arrendis wrote:
A Martyr dies for their faith. Is there evidence that the Empress was assassinated because she believed in God?


Ms. Culome.. Arrendis, we can answer this question very simply. The Empress died in the active service of God, with faith in God, and while raillying the Amarr Faithful. Her final words, which we have quoted below, are a clear statement of her purpose for being in Safizon.

Jamyl Sarum I wrote:
Faithful of Amarr, it pleases us to see so many loyal capsuleers present here today. We are gathered here in token of our holy mission to reclaim creation and bring the glory of God to all. To reaffirm this mission, it is fitting we mark the launch of our latest Imperial Flagship, the Auctoritas. You will bear witness to the might and peerless technology of Holy Amarr as we




Does that satisfy your inquiry?



No. Again, what she was doing is irrelevant. Why she was killed is what matters. If I kill a priest during a service because I don't like the color blue, and he said the word 'blue', he's not a martyr. Martyrdom lies in the motives of the killer.

As a counterexample: If a Wayist is walking down the street talking to a friend of his about his religious beliefs, and I blow him away because I hate Wayism? That's a martyr. He has died for his faith. His faith is what motivated the slaying, as opposed to, for example, proliferating a shielding technology that inspired thousands of Capsuleers to kill tens or hundreds of thousands of Circadian Seekers in order to harvest their Antikythera Elements.

I can't agree with this point of view.

I believe to become a martyr one has to die for the sake of religion or defending it, and not just by motives of a killer, that might never be known. For example, we aren't telepaths to know why you killed a priest. And drifters' motives are even better example for this.

Martyrs either accept their deaths for the religion, or their death affect something of huge religion importance. For example, killing priest because you hate religion during usual service might not make him actual martyr. But if the priest was reading his service to heathens with idea to convert them, and you kill him because of word blue, he will probably become martyr.

And speaking about Wayism. Why do you think there aren't a lot known Wayist martyrs? It's not like because Caldari never ransacked temples since it was taboo. No, of course it did happen and monks were killed. Just Wayism is sort of "home" religion, it doesn't spread outside beyond those, who come into it themselves. It is more philosophy than actual religion, it doesn't need defending. Those, who die while doing something important for Wayism religion are usually considered as they have failed religious task, they have failed their test, and not as martyrs. If you were killed, you was weak as a warrior, you didn't predict it, you wasn't ready, you wasn't on guard to deflect the attack and fight back...

But that's Wayism and Her Majesty wasn't Wayist. I can't tell Imperials whom they should consider a martyr and whom not, but from my point of view, Jamyl Sarum matches description of a martyr.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#25 - 2015-09-14 17:07:12 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I can't agree with this point of view.


Except then you did.

Quote:

I believe to become a martyr one has to die for the sake of religion or defending it, and not just by motives of a killer, that might never be known. For example, we aren't telepaths to know why you killed a priest. And drifters' motives are even better example for this.


Killing a priest for the word blue doesn't mean he's died for the sake of his religion. It doesn't mean he was defending his religion. It means he died because someone didn't like the word 'blue'.

To die for the sake of your religion means your religion is the reason you are dying. It means if not for your religion, you wouldn't be dying. Dying to defend your religion, again, means if not for your religion, you wouldn't be dying. The danger would pass right by you, and leave you unharmed.

By all the evidence, that's not what happened here.

Quote:

Martyrs either accept their deaths for the religion, or their death affect something of huge religion importance.


Empress Jamyl I's death was not in defense of her faith. At no point did the Drifters make any assertions that the Amarr faith was false, or that those who turned from it would be spared. The only reason her death has any religious significance is because the Empire's structure is theocratic - there were no prophecies to fulfill, no divine mandate that was unexpectedly called due, no statements that religious concerns contributed to the incident in any way whatsoever.

Quote:

I can't tell Imperials whom they should consider a martyr and whom not, but from my point of view, Jamyl Sarum matches description of a martyr.


On what basis, exactly? On the basis of the criteria you've listed, without showing any evidence that the Empress' death met those criteria?

I can understand and even respect the desire of the Amarr faithful to want to laud accolades and special considerations upon the Empress who was so efficiently and suddenly gunned down literally right in front of many of them. But the bandwagoning whenever anyone brings up yet another title to posthumously bestow on her, from those looking to curry favor, is getting a bit ridiculous.
Grash Uriza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-09-14 17:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Grash Uriza
Goldfinch wrote:

Lord Mokk is gravely concerned of the Drifter threat, an enemy he has actively pursued in the field. We share his concern, and agree with his call to action. He rightly names the Theology Council as the owner for any decision of bestowal of Martyrdom for the late Empress.


I beleive people are mistaken what I am doing. This is not a presumption or premptive act on my part. It an open question to the Theology Council under the direction of the Imperial Chancellor. I have done this so we can focus on our war with the Drifters. So we can continue to enforce the boarders of the Empire. And if the Theology Agrees with my rationale for doing this now, it be something we can all leveage against the Enemies of Our Holy Amarr Empire to show our unity and resolve.

The reason the petition was made public so that all know that the matter has been placed before the Theology Council. Simply put, regardless how you feel on the matter, it is out of our hands. Until the Council rules, I am waiting with prayer and patience.

I hope that this clarification this helps all.


Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:

House Uriza would do well to reconsider your position as one of its voices if this is your attempt at tact, diplomacy, and the understanding of any "pecking" order.


I can't tell I'm being chided for my tone because I refused to be lectured on the workings of our Holy Amarr Empire from one not currently in fully communion with us, or that I would playfully nudge them to bring their kin back into the fold at this time.

Regardless, I have full support of my House in this matter.

Deus Vult, Amarr Victor
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-09-14 21:15:43 UTC
Greetings!


I commend the efforts of House Uriza in spearheading this drive to establish the martyrdom of the late and sorely missed Jamyl Sarum, Empress Amarr. That they have ample time to write such a well-thought petition and answer the myriad questions of the Summit, in addition to their duties to the Empire during this time of war is quite impressive. I look forward to seeing them on-grid during the next incursion. I have no doubt that their martial prowess will match their skill in writing. I will be very pleased to see equal faith and fortitude displayed against our enemies. I didn't notice them during the first attacks.

I am equally impressed with young Grash's devotion to his House. May your prayers and patience bring you all you deserve in this matter.

I should point out though that our dearly departed Empress saw fit to include my King and Kingdom as an equal part of this Empire. In truth, since our reunification, Khanid has been the closest friend to the other Houses of Amarr, no matter how meek or small. If we have been neglectful in our communion with House Uriza, please accept my sincerest apology. We will be paying special attention to you from now on.

Do please let me know if you require any assistance in your war preparations. I have no doubt that you will all be as brave as young Grash, I would endeavour to see such bravery rewarded in kind. In fact, I would like to invite Grash to join me in battle against the Drifters. I plan on being in the vanguard, so please make sure you have your affairs in order...just in case. May God guide us to victory.

And since there seems to have been a minor oversight on someone's part, I'll leave you as...

Sir Sinjin Mokk
Holder, House Mokk
Baron of Badivefi II
Cyberknight of Khanid,
Chamberlain to the Royal Khanid Capsuleer Council
Executor and founder of Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
Retired: Khanid Provincial Vanguard, Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris, 24th Imperial Crusade, Caldari State Protectorate, etc.


Khanid Victor!
Amarr Victor!

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-09-14 22:28:53 UTC
When there are hundreds of thousands of languages in the Cluster, arguing the subtle differences of a single translated word is almost useless.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2015-09-15 00:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Why do people who aren't of the Amarr faith even comment here? Who cares what they call their important people after they die, its not what we're calling our own dead. Even playing the semantic side, really whys it any outsiders concern?
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#30 - 2015-09-15 00:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Neph
Deitra Vess wrote:
Why do people who aren't of the Amarr faith even comment here? Who cares what they call their important people after they die, its not what we're calling our own dead. Even playing the semantic side, really whys it any outsiders concern?


Because it's on the IGN, where everybody is an expert and chief authority on everything.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Arrendis
TK Corp
#31 - 2015-09-15 00:47:28 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Why do people who aren't of the Amarr faith even comment here?


Why put it here if not to invite comment?
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#32 - 2015-09-15 01:05:15 UTC
Not every Amarr faith follower is interconnected? If They started questioning things involving the tribes I would expect half of us to tell them to shut up, surprised they haven't yet.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-09-15 05:02:19 UTC

Arrendis wrote:
Let's review that question, shall we?
Quote:
Is there evidence that the Empress was assassinated because she believed in God?


But Ms. Culome, you added conditions to that, haven't you?

Arrendis wrote:
Martyrdom lies in the motives of the killer.


Since both of us know that we presently cannot determine the motive of Drifters, we think your question is a philosophical black hole. You are asking a question that has no answer, and then requiring that an answer to the unanswerable question is a prerequisite of Martyrdom.

Let us ask you this. The Empress of Amarr, the Voice of Divine Truth, Shepherd of the Lord's Chosen Children is among her people and unveiling a flagship specifically designed in a time when Drifters have solely engaged Amarr Empire and no one else in the Cluster. What about that do you dispute to be in the service of God?

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-09-15 08:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyweir Kinnison
Deitra Vess wrote:
Not every Amarr faith follower is interconnected? If They started questioning things involving the tribes I would expect half of us to tell them to shut up, surprised they haven't yet.



Ideally, of course, we could each restrict ourselves to our own little echo chambers, where the sound of being right all the time would soothe us.

Presenting thoughts and opinions to the scrutiny of others who think differently - to enemies, even - is a brave and considerate thing to do. To offer a counter-thought, develops strength of mind and position through the process of debate. This is the very lifeblood of liberty.

I believe that most of the Amarr here, for example, genuinely delight in countering the challenges of others, as it both helps them strength their own faith and indeed, may serve to demonstrate and teach that faith to others.

One cannot preach only to the choir.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Grash Uriza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-09-15 17:39:11 UTC
Sir Sinjin Mokk,
I am honored to accept your offer to join you in defense Glory of our Holy Amarr Empire in the Drifter War.

Please understand that I'n currently charged with the duty to defend the Empire's boarders and to reclaim systems. As such, I have not been within response range of the previous Drifter incursions. For this reason, I will be contacting you via a secure channel to facilitate further response.

Deus Vult, Amarr Victor!
Grash Uriza
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-09-17 04:24:24 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
A Martyr dies for their faith. Is there evidence that the Empress was assassinated because she believed in God?


It's pretty clear that the Empress was targeted specifically because of her position as Empress. If she was killed because she was the Empress and actions she took as such, then she is a martyr.
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