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Why must Gallente Armor tank?
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Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#61 - 2012-04-10 22:45:30 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Because it dies with class.

Active tanking is just lols to death for other thing than pve, even then you have at least 3 T1 riggs and 4 cap recharge mods.


I haven't flown them myself, but iirc the triple-repper Myrmidon was something of a PvP favorite a year or two ago.
Annie Anomie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-04-11 01:12:38 UTC
Myrm and Brutix are perfectly viable fitted active armour provided you use them in fights of a scale where that tank works.

Both can be fitted shield for other fights and they are viable that way too even ignoring the bonus.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-04-11 01:31:01 UTC
I would love to see Gallente be able to swap between shield and armour, but unfortantely that'd **** on the entire Caldari hybrid boat line.

Personally I love the Myrm and Hyperion in both their Armour and Shield iterations, but loosing the armour bonus I feel removes a damn fun niché in pvp. Dual/Triple rep Myrms? So much fun.

I lied :o
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-04-11 02:23:16 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Gritz1 wrote:
Raven Ether wrote:
Get rid of armor rep bonus on Myrmidon. Allow flexibility.


Triple rep myrms are a tough nut to crack, and can stay on the field longer then most other ships because of this bonus. removing it would hurt this greatly.

If anything take the Brutix's away and change it to a bonus that makes it near as effective a skirmish ship as the Hurricane. Leave the Myrms current underused but powerful Niche intact to be improved upon in further balance changes.

Yeah, replace the repping bonus of the Brutix with something else. No need for two BCs of the same race to have the same active repping bonus. Gallente ought to have at least ONE fleet BC available.


And then you try to slap rails in to your Brutix and actually try to dps something but... Lol

ok let's do it again

And then you slap blasters in to your Brutix and actually spend your time trying to get in range and dps something else than the gate Lol


amigood?


Have you flown a fleet fit rail Brutix since the patch? It has the fitting problems of all T1 BC, but it does greater DPS at a greater base range than the Cane. Less alpha of course, but the quicker cycle time makes up for it, IMHO. Point and laugh all you want, (and honestly, our FCs still do) but it's true. On the few occasions I have been able to slip it into fleets, it performs as well as Drakes, Canes and Tornados. Give it a proper balancing pass and it will be even more competitive.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-04-11 02:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
If you buffer tank you can easily get 30k-40k ehp on a brutix with shields (50k total if you use DCU2) so long as you have decent shield skills that is. A tank is supposed to last long enough for you to blow your enemy to pieces, not hold off 20 enemies at once. The thorax with a shield tank also doesn't lose speed from armor velocity penalties that some armor mods and rigs inflict. I have virtually no rail or blaster skills but the brutix can still pump 400 dps+drones. With the right skills it can push 500 dps and hold a 40k ehp buffer with shields. The biggest mistake a person can make is to underestimate their opponent.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#66 - 2012-04-11 04:06:01 UTC
So,

Brutix will be fixed along with the other tier 1 BCs (it's by far the best out of that bunch, by the way), and it will get an additional low slot (my guess).

Changing the rep bonus to a resist bonus would probably be good for the Brutix as well.

Then CCP has said they will take a look at armor tanking, and most agree that armor rig drawback is the main issue. Leave the speed penalty to Trimarks, put sig penalty to the others.

Then increase PG requirements for shield extenders, and add more HP to plates.

Add a scriptable mid-slot damage module, like the tracking computer.

.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-04-11 09:16:04 UTC
Drew Solaert wrote:
I would love to see Gallente be able to swap between shield and armour, but unfortantely that'd **** on the entire Caldari hybrid boat line.

Personally I love the Myrm and Hyperion in both their Armour and Shield iterations, but loosing the armour bonus I feel removes a damn fun niché in pvp. Dual/Triple rep Myrms? So much fun.


Not really, the Caldari hybrid boat line (pretty much?) all have bonuses to optimal, and get good range with AM ammo with Rails.

A Rokh will still have a much better shield tank than a Hyperion, and have much better damage projection (even if its total damage is less).
The same would go with the Ferox vs the Brutix, and the Drake vs the Myrm.

Below BC, the Gallente don't have armor bonuses (that I can think of), and thus nothing would change there.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#68 - 2012-04-11 20:29:50 UTC
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
If you buffer tank you can easily get 30k-40k ehp on a brutix with shields (50k total if you use DCU2) so long as you have decent shield skills that is. A tank is supposed to last long enough for you to blow your enemy to pieces, not hold off 20 enemies at once. The thorax with a shield tank also doesn't lose speed from armor velocity penalties that some armor mods and rigs inflict. I have virtually no rail or blaster skills but the brutix can still pump 400 dps+drones. With the right skills it can push 500 dps and hold a 40k ehp buffer with shields. The biggest mistake a person can make is to underestimate their opponent.


A shield based Brutix with three mfs and a TE can get 1040ish DPS with void and 790ish DPS with Null - all figures overheated. 50k EHP is spot on. Now compare that to the Ferox. 82.7k EHP. 750ish with Void overheated. 560ish with Null. This is with a DC2 and thre MSF -50% more optimal even w/o a TE compared to the Brutix. If I lose the DC2 and exchange it for a TE2? 66k EHP. 11km optimal plus 11km falloff with null vs. 6km optimal and 9.1km falloff for the Brutix. Hell - void on the ferox would be 5.8km optimal and 4.1km falloff - I can fight the Brutix at it's Null range using Void and still have much more EHP.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you want to go pure gank with Gallente and shield tank - you may as well go Caldari instead. You get a much more versatile DPS curve then Gallente and a shield tank that is superior in every way. You lose up close DPS but the range is significant and you're not a fish out of water should you not be on undock or on the acceleration gate...
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-04-12 11:20:39 UTC
Armor/Shield rep bonuses are horrible, and limit the flexibility of the same, because if you don't use an active rep, you throw away one of your two bonuses.

******* lame really
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-04-12 11:25:56 UTC
But if the rep bonus on the Brutix were replaced with an ROF bonus... I suspect your analysis would change...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#71 - 2012-04-12 12:14:30 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
A shield based Brutix with three mfs and a TE can get 1040ish DPS with void and 790ish DPS with Null - all figures overheated. 50k EHP is spot on. Now compare that to the Ferox. 82.7k EHP. 750ish with Void overheated. 560ish with Null. This is with a DC2 and thre MSF -50% more optimal even w/o a TE compared to the Brutix. If I lose the DC2 and exchange it for a TE2? 66k EHP. 11km optimal plus 11km falloff with null vs. 6km optimal and 9.1km falloff for the Brutix. Hell - void on the ferox would be 5.8km optimal and 4.1km falloff - I can fight the Brutix at it's Null range using Void and still have much more EHP.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you want to go pure gank with Gallente and shield tank - you may as well go Caldari instead. You get a much more versatile DPS curve then Gallente and a shield tank that is superior in every way. You lose up close DPS but the range is significant and you're not a fish out of water should you not be on undock or on the acceleration gate...


That Ferox looks nice indeed!

.
Aluka 7th
#72 - 2012-04-13 11:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Answer to O.P.!

Reason is in the history of EVE.
Original idea was that races that used more cap for guns should also use less cap for tank.
It was time when logi ships didn't exist and when they did appear they were s.. bad.
Also proejctile guns used cap back then.

So gun systems were in this order:
Lasers (high cap usage) -> Hybrids -> Projectiles (low cap usage, prob for loading :) -> Missiles (no cap usage)
AMARR-> GALENTE -> MINMATAR ->CALDARI

And thats why you have tanking styles (armor tanking is more cap efficient):
Armor (passive) -> Armor (active) -> Armor (active)/shield (passive, sh. power relay kills cap) -> Shield (active)
AMARR-> GALENTE -> MINMATAR ->CALDARI

Altho you can find later through EVE history some mix breed to spice things up. Introduction of minmatar command ship is little odd in way it favors the active shield but so is amarr damnation odd in way it favors missiles.

Now with years of nerfs and buffs, active local armor tanking is not that usefull anymore but that is why we need new mechanics/buffs in years to come to shift focus to it back again.
Katalci
Kismesis
#73 - 2012-04-15 00:42:36 UTC
Probably because you're not smart/creative enough to fit them for shield tanking.
Yamadori
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-04-24 10:59:02 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
The lore, slot layout and bonuses of Amarr ships make it quite clear that Amarr ships should armor tank, and Caldari ships should shield tank... both have ships with 5% resists to their respective tank style.

Minmatar often have their choice in tank, or have some ships that tank Armor, and some that tank Shield (example, Hurricane can do both, Typhoon is good with armor tank....), some are sort of forced into a shield tank style by a shield boost bonus.

Then we have the Gallente... quite a few of their ships have slot layout such that they could be fitted for decent shield tanks (with 4 meds and 3 rig slots, a decent shield tank can be made - which sometimes results in even Amarr ships shield tanking, such as Apocs/navy Apocs in incursions):
Brutix, Myrmidion, Dominix, Hyperion

Yet all these ships except the Dominix have this damn active rep bonus...
The slot layout gives you versatility/choices, but then the active rep bonus means if you want chose a different shield type, you throw away a bonus.
So pretty much all armor tank Gallente ships, and consider a shield tanked Domi to be a abberation.

Of course many people feel that Active rep bonuses aren't that useful (especialyl for anything other than solo work), and are subpar compared to % resist bonuses that increase buffer and effective rep rate.
On top of this, they shoehorn the best candidates for Gallente shield tankers into the armor tank role - although when it comes to incursions, this goes out the window as local rep isnt used, and I often see shield tanked Hyperions and sometimes megas LFSF.
I also often hear of Shield Brutix fits for PvP.

My suggestion is to get rid of these armor rep bonuses (and the shield boost bonus on the Minmatar Cyclone, Claymore, and Mael), and replace it with another bonus, making the Gallente and Minmatar more variable when it comes to what they tank.
Perhaps give them a -5% cap recharge time bonus (and maybe a utlity high).
This higher cap regen aids them in active tank, or it can work to power a utility high, making the ship more versatilele (could power RRs, Cap drain, MWD, etc


+1 to all of this, because apparently it hasn't been said often enough...
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-04-24 12:04:45 UTC
Apparently it hasn't, with the changes coming in inferno, Gallente are getting more active rep bonuses....

At least the new rep bonus I see proposed (haven't loaded EVE yet) for the incurses makes the bonus a +10% bonus instead of a +7.5% bonus.

But they removed the Incursus range bonus, and its still not too fast... so I don't know how its ever going to get in range with no buffer, no range, and marginal speed - but ship speeds are another topic, why do three races cluster around similar speeds, and then you have the winmatar WTFpwn in the speed department. Gallente should be the secon fastest, and in most cases they are, but their speed advantage over amarr or caldari si a joke compared to the winmatar.

Its also just bad design to not have the shortest range weapon system on the fastest hulls
Noisrevbus
#76 - 2012-04-24 14:19:08 UTC
Minmatar are primarily an (active-) shield-based race with some ships fit for armor-tanking without armor bonuses.

Gallente are primarily an (active-) armor-based race with some ships fit for shield-tanking without shield bonuses.

What is the problem discussed in this thread again?

You should stop thinking "i would like to do these things with this ship" and start thinking "this ship let me do these things, i would like that". I understand that's a perspective you don't have the luxury of when you are just starting out in the game, but it ultimately boils down to you having made poor choices and want something different than what your skillpoints and choosen ships allow you to do.

There are definately issues with isolated ships and larger sweeping issues with the scaling of the game and practical application of certain setups and traits. That has very little to do with Gallente as a race, their ability to off-tank in shield or wether active-tanking is functional. Contradictingly, there are far too many generalizations thrown around to motivate isolated personal perspectives here.

Many Gallente ships can shield tank.

Many Gallente ships shield tank reasonably well for the common application (mobility-l.buffer; passive-shield etc.).
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-04-24 15:44:50 UTC
My issue is that the only gallente ships that can reasonably shield tank get this crappy active rep bonus which is inferior to an armor resist bonus.

Give us the armor resist bonus, or get rid of the active rep bonus and give us a bonus that allows us to apply more DPS.

Failing that... buff the active rep bonus...
but right now, of all the bonuses out there, the active rep bonus is one of the last ones I would want.
ian papabear
No Regard.
#78 - 2012-04-24 17:23:24 UTC
a shield domi puts out more dps than an armor domi. js

.
ian papabear
No Regard.
#79 - 2012-04-24 17:24:21 UTC
ian papabear wrote:
a shield domi puts out more dps than an armor domi. js


i also use shield brutix and myrm, js

.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-04-24 23:01:39 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Apparently it hasn't, with the changes coming in inferno, Gallente are getting more active rep bonuses....

At least the new rep bonus I see proposed (haven't loaded EVE yet) for the incurses makes the bonus a +10% bonus instead of a +7.5% bonus.

But they removed the Incursus range bonus, and its still not too fast... so I don't know how its ever going to get in range with no buffer, no range, and marginal speed - but ship speeds are another topic, why do three races cluster around similar speeds, and then you have the winmatar WTFpwn in the speed department. Gallente should be the secon fastest, and in most cases they are, but their speed advantage over amarr or caldari si a joke compared to the winmatar.

Its also just bad design to not have the shortest range weapon system on the fastest hulls


Sorry - but where did you get this info? I havent seen any notes on the actual changes yet.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!